Call what you see... or what you think happened

[just another ref]

Originally posted by mick
The baseball metaphor is not totally applicable, because, as you know, with argumentative baseball players it's very acceptable and usually expected to go to another umpire, while in hoops, though it is acceptable, it is not necessarily expected that you ask a partner.
Different strokes for different folks....
mick

Also, in baseball, a no-call is not an option.

[mick]

Originally posted by just another ref

Also, in baseball, a no-call is not an option.

Justa,
That's pretty close.
If we don't see an out, it has to be a no-call safe, but we have to say, "Safe".
mick

[just another ref]

Originally posted by mick

Justa,
That's pretty close.
If we don't see an out, it has to be a no-call safe, but we have to say, "Safe".
mick

Exactly. In other words, you can't shrug you shoulders and act like you had something in your eye. (I hardly ever do that)

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Just because a player got poked into their eye, does not mean it was a foul that caused that.

If you saw the NC/Duke game, I did not think that was a foul. But that is just my opinion.

Peace

If a player has the ball, a defender is waving arms and accidentally pokes in the eye (and you see the poke in the eye), it is not clear to me why this is not a foul. It is contact, it is illegal,and it results in an unfair advantage for the defense.

To me,the accidental eye poke is like the accidental high stick in hockey - the defender may not have meant to do it, but when it happens, it should be a foul. I know it is not always called that way, but I wish it was.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
If a player has the ball, a defender is waving arms and accidentally pokes in the eye (and you see the poke in the eye), it is not clear to me why this is not a foul. It is contact, it is illegal,and it results in an unfair advantage for the defense.

Coach, I agree with you. And I think (although I don't want to put words in his mouth) that Jeff would agree with you, too. But the incident in the Duke/UNC game -- which is what Jeff was referring to -- was not the kind of contact that you describe.

Chuck

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
If a player has the ball, a defender is waving arms and accidentally pokes in the eye (and you see the poke in the eye), it is not clear to me why this is not a foul. It is contact, it is illegal,and it results in an unfair advantage for the defense.

To me,the accidental eye poke is like the accidental high stick in hockey - the defender may not have meant to do it, but when it happens, it should be a foul. I know it is not always called that way, but I wish it was.

Well, basketball is not hockey. So if a player just falls to the ground, I am not calling something just because. There has to be contact, not just what looks like contact. Sorry, good no call.

Peace

[TriggerMN]

Heh...this last post reminded me of the time when Danny Ainge was doing color commentary for TNT during a Utah Jazz game, and said, "One of these times, all five of the Utah defenders are just going to fall down." Referring to how the Jazz flop, and with Ainge just ending his tenure in Phoenix, it was pretty damn funny.

Anyways, carry on.

[Rich]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I totally agree in thoery you should not call things you do not see. I agree that in a 2 person game it can be even more difficult to call many things with so much to cover. But I will say this. You will call things you do not see all the time. Or at least not see the entire play. You might see the very end and have to make a split second decision of what actually happen. So in other you might see a player get completely knocked to the floor and not see how they got there completely. But in a 2 person game, you might have to make some kind of call anyway. In 3 Person it is much easier to see everything from the beginning to the end. In 2 Person you might see the "second action" and not the first and have to make a call. It is just one of those flaws with the 2 Person system.

I do not know if anyone does baseball here, but even with 2 umpires you will have to make some sacrifices and make a call one way or another. The It is obviously more ideal to have 4 umpires who can cover the field much better, but when there is only two of you, you have to make the best of a not so great situation.


Peace

I had a situation happen earlier this season I'll put out there. I'm sure it will make me look incompetent, but hey, I'm pretty good at that:

2-whistle. I'm trail. Girl drives down the lane and right at the key moment, a defender screens me from the ball handler. Just as I take a step forward, the player goes down in a heap.

I hesitate, waiting for my partner to bail my sorry self out, and then....I blow my whistle and call a block on the girl that has her leg right about where it would need to be to trip the driver on the way by.

I made the right call, I know, because the girl put her hand up like they used to have to in the old days.

My fault I got screened, but I figure it would be worse to not call anything in this situation than to make an educated guess.

Beat me up now

Rich

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Well, basketball is not hockey. So if a player just falls to the ground, I am not calling something just because. There has to be contact, not just what looks like contact. Sorry, good no call.

Peace

Rut
I am not talking about imagining contact where none occurs. Read the whole post please. I stipulated that the ref must see the poke in the eye. Hockey is no different. You have to see the high stick to call the high stick. The principle that I was referring to in my post is very applicable - you have to be in control of your hands, arms, etc, just like the hockey player must control his stick.

Accidents that result in illegal contact are fouls. Seeing a player fall or grab an eye does not result in a foul if you see only the result and not the contact that caused it. I did not see the UNC-Duke game, so I don't know if it was a good or bad call (or no-call). I have seen many refs treat an accidental eye poke that they saw as incidental contact. I have had a ref tell me that he saw it, it was an accident, therefore no call. I strongly disagree with that opinion.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser




My fault I got screened, but I figure it would be worse to not call anything in this situation than to make an educated guess.

Beat me up now

Rich

Well in Boy's games, players flop all the time. So you better be sure in those games something took place before you call "phantom" calls. Or you might be doing girl's ball all the time.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Well in Boy's games, players flop all the time. So you better be sure in those games something took place before you call "phantom" calls. Or you might be doing girl's ball all the time.

Hmmm, how likely is it for the ball handler to flop? I see defensive players do it all the time, but don't recall ever seeing the ballhandler flop.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach


Rut
I am not talking about imagining contact where none occurs. Read the whole post please. I stipulated that the ref must see the poke in the eye. Hockey is no different. You have to see the high stick to call the high stick. The principle that I was referring to in my post is very applicable - you have to be in control of your hands, arms, etc, just like the hockey player must control his stick.

All contact is not a foul. So just because a player got poked in the eye, did not mean a foul is the reason for that contact. You hockey comparison does not hold water. In Hockey I can assume that there was a check, it just comes down to the legality of that check. Not much different than a screen in basketball. I think I saw the Missouri Valley Conference Championship and a Southern Illinois player ran hard into a completely stationary (not completely required by rule btw) screen by a Creiaton(sp) player and the SIU player, shuttered in pain. Everything that happen was legal and the officials called nothing.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Accidents that result in illegal contact are fouls. Seeing a player fall or grab an eye does not result in a foul if you see only the result and not the contact that caused it. I did not see the UNC-Duke game, so I don't know if it was a good or bad call (or no-call). I have seen many refs treat an accidental eye poke that they saw as incidental contact. I have had a ref tell me that he saw it, it was an accident, therefore no call. I strongly disagree with that opinion.

I will remember that the next time a kid falls down. I will assume that every time a player falls that he got there by another player or that they are not acting. And considering that the action in this game. The contact was not very obvious and if we did not see over and over again on replay, you might not even known that contact took place. And then what if he did not move, you still going to call a foul? I have seen players get hit and keep coming. You have not given me any evidence why this was a foul other than opinion. Contact is not a foul all by itself. Basketball can and is a rough game and all contact is not going to warrant or should bring a foul. This falls totally under the "incidental contact" section of the rule and if the player did not fall down, we would not even be discussing this. If his falling down is the only thing you can use as a foul, then to me it is not a foul.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Hmmm, how likely is it for the ball handler to flop? I see defensive players do it all the time, but don't recall ever seeing the ballhandler flop.

So what you are telling me, a ball handler can only fall as a result of something illegal from the defense? Please tell me you are not serious? If you are, you might need to see more plays. I see ball handlers all the time fall and the defenders were in legal guarding position and just standing there. Just because there is contact, does not mean anything illegal took place. Calling all contact a foul to me is an easy way out. If you did not see a play, do not just make something up. You might be totally wrong.

Peace

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

So what you are telling me, a ball handler can only fall as a result of something illegal from the defense? Please tell me you are not serious? If you are, you might need to see more plays. I see ball handlers all the time fall and the defenders were in legal guarding position and just standing there. Just because there is contact, does not mean anything illegal took place. Calling all contact a foul to me is an easy way out. If you did not see a play, do not just make something up. You might be totally wrong.

Peace

IMO you are likely to see ball handlers "flop" when they drive into the lane out of control or an offensive player recieves a pass off balance. There is contact but because the defender was legal and the offensive player caused all/any contact they end up on the floor. Sometimes (often times???) this contact is not severe enough so we pass on the PC foul and play on. The coach of the offensive team is usually whining about a block or protecting his shooter at this point...When in fact the only thing the player needs to be protected from is themselves...

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

If a player has the ball, a defender is waving arms and accidentally pokes in the eye (and you see the poke in the eye), it is not clear to me why this is not a foul. It is contact, it is illegal,and it results in an unfair advantage for the defense.

To me,the accidental eye poke is like the accidental high stick in hockey - the defender may not have meant to do it, but when it happens, it should be a foul. I know it is not always called that way, but I wish it was.

HAWKS:

Sitch: A defender has gained legal guarding pos. on your post player who is a good 6 inches taller than the defender who is behind her. Your girl recieves the ball and turns to make a move and leans into the outstretched hand (motionless w/in legal vertical plane) of defender. Would you be happy if I called a PC on your post player or if your player was the defender if I called a block. I think not. Sometimes contact is purely incedental and unfortunately injuries do happen sometimes do to incidental contact. It is not our responsibility to penalize the other team because of this