opening tip

[Macca]

acca

quote:

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Originally posted by rainmaker:

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To get this rule right, and it does happen every once in a while, just remember two things: 1) A1 catching the ball establishes next possession for B the same way as if any member of A got possession legally after the tip and 2) the subsequent violation call has no effect on the already-established possession.[/QUOTE]

I am going to memorize this paragraph to use as explanation to basically everyone if and when this happens in one of my games. Getting the rule straight in my head takes some work, but is do-able. Getting the call right takes practice and experience. Explanation to the rest of society takes wisdom far beyond my years, yet, so this is a big help! Thanks, Mark!

[/B][/QUOTE]
G'Day Mate

Can you please explain the arrow or possession part to me as I use FIBA rules in Australia and I would like a bit of clarification.

Thanks

Macca from down under.

[jackgil]

Rain -

Next time that happens tell him the importance of keeping the arrow and that is why they pay him the big bucks. Usually gets a laugh from the kids. If that doesnt work, tell him the next time you see him toss the arrow, youre gonna toss him.

Jack

[rainmaker]

I'm going out on a limb here, knowing that if I get this wrong, someone will correct me--kindly, I hope!

After the ball is tossed, the first team to gain possession (two-hand hold, or good dribble) has gotten the first "alternating possession" and the arrow is then set toward THE OTHER basket. In other words, if A2 comes down with the ball after the tip, team A now has possession and team B gets the next alternating possession. The table keepers should set the arrow toward B's basket so on the next held ball or double foul or whatever the ref can look up, see the arrow toward B and call color and point toward B's basket.

The main problem I have with this isn't with all the rule intricacies, but with table folks who aren't experienced. Like the school where the arrow was painted onto a block of wood and I loooked up after a held ball and the table kid was tossing the arrow up and catching it like a juggling club!!

[donfowler]

This is one of those crazy situations that refs MUST always be ready for. Find out how to get rule/case books from your state assoc. and study. In this case, Team B violates. Team A gets ball and arrow. Think of it this way...Team B got first possession so arrow would go to A.
I still love wearing the stripes after 26 years. Be patient and don't be afraid to ask questions.
Good luck.

[joselirizarry]

quote:

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Originally posted by hammerhoops:
I came across this site trying to find more information on the rules of basketball. I am a new official and I'm always trying to learn more about this awesome game! I cannot believe how much I did not know about the game, even when I played it for many years. I plan on using this forum a lot to learn more from others if you don't mind. I could ask you a hundred questions, but one will do for now.

On the opening tip, if one of the players jumping catches the ball, I know it is a violation, but who gets the next possession on a jump ball? I am guessing the team who did not catch the ball on the jump. Am I right? I want to make sure because this happened in a game recently and the other official I was working with did not know either. Thanks!

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The team ( team A ) that caught the ball has control and because the jumper caught it befour any other of the non jumpers , the floor, basket or backboard it is a violation.
Team B gets the arrow and the ball OOB.




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Allways trying to get better!

[hoopsrefBC]

I know that NF rules are the main ones used on this board but as an official trying to understand ammerican based rules better, i came across a play in the 1999 version of the NCAA rule book in the Rule 6 of the interpretations section. Play 5 on page BI-27 states.

"During the opening jump ball, A1 illegally catches the tossed ball. The referr blows the whistle and awards the ball to B1 out of bounds at the division line.. How is the alternating-possession arrow established.?

RULING: The fist legal possession is by B1 on the throw-in. As soon as the throw-in by Team B ends. The alternating-possession arrow is changed towards Team A."

My understanding of the rule and interpretations is that after the violation by the jumper, the arrow will remain unset, that is not pointing in either direction, until a team establish possession.


Oh by the way the National Federation of High School Associations and the NCAA rules bodies were both using this Interpretation as of 1999.

Keep smiling..

[joselirizarry]

quote:

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Originally posted by hoopsrefBC:
I know that NF rules are the main ones used on this board but as an official trying to understand ammerican based rules better, i came across a play in the 1999 version of the NCAA rule book in the Rule 6 of the interpretations section. Play 5 on page BI-27 states.

"During the opening jump ball, A1 illegally catches the tossed ball. The referr blows the whistle and awards the ball to B1 out of bounds at the division line.. How is the alternating-possession arrow established.?

RULING: The fist legal possession is by B1 on the throw-in. As soon as the throw-in by Team B ends. The alternating-possession arrow is changed towards Team A."

My understanding of the rule and interpretations is that after the violation by the jumper, the arrow will remain unset, that is not pointing in either direction, until a team establish possession.


Oh by the way the National Federation of High School Associations and the NCAA rules bodies were both using this Interpretation as of 1999.

Keep smiling..

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Thanks hoopsref
your qustion made my go into my rule book (1999-2000 new one out NOV 2000. i think.)

National Federation Of State High School Associations 1999-2000 Rules Book

Rule 4-3-ART.3 a (page25)
Alternating- possession control is estsblished and the inital direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent,s basket when:

A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control



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Allways trying to get better!

[rainmaker]

quote:

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Originally posted by joselirizarry:
National Federation Of State High School Associations 1999-2000 Rules Book

Rule 4-3-ART.3 a (page25)
Alternating- possession control is estsblished and the inital direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent,s basket when:

A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control

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Joselirizzary:

You forgot to quote the most important part. If we run together the various subitems as if they made one sentence it sounds like this:

"Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when...(Art 3)the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:...(item a) a violation during or following the jump before a player secures control." This means the arrow is not established until the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower.

My question is about the phrase, "before a player secures control." Did the jumper establish control enough that the rule quoted above doesn't apply. It appears to me the answer is no, but I can see how some folks might feel this is open to interpretation, and I can imagine different refs ruling different ways. Is there another rule that would give a more definitive "correct" interpretation? I can't find anything, but then I don't have the experience to guide me.

[walter]

quote:

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Originally posted by rainmaker:
Joselirizzary:

You forgot to quote the most important part. If we run together the various subitems as if they made one sentence it sounds like this:

"Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when...(Art 3)the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:...(item a) a violation during or following the jump before a player secures control." This means the arrow is not established until the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower.

My question is about the phrase, "before a player secures control." Did the jumper establish control enough that the rule quoted above doesn't apply. It appears to me the answer is no, but I can see how some folks might feel this is open to interpretation, and I can imagine different refs ruling different ways. Is there another rule that would give a more definitive "correct" interpretation? I can't find anything, but then I don't have the experience to guide me.

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The answer depends upon what rules you're playing under. NCAA the jumper A1 has controlled the ball illegally. Therefore, B gets the ball for a throw-in (first legally established control) but as soon as the throw-in ends, the arrow is pointed toward Team A (Rule 6-2, BI 6-2-5). However, under NFHS, casebook play 6.1.3C(D), team B gets the throw-in because of the violation AND gets the arrow because control was established when jumper A1 caught the ball.

[Alaska Ref]

I believe Rainmaker has it right!

The jumpers can not establish "control" until a couple of things happen---Ball hits the floor, a non-jumper or the backboard. It's a violation but some are saying you have to have "control" to violate.

Question: A-1 is standing with one foot on the sideline, the ball becomes loose and hits A-1 (who causes the ball to be "out of bounds") a violation by rule, but did A-1 have control? If jumper A-1 taps the ball out of bounds team B gets the ball for a throw-in and the "first possession" and establish's the Alternating Possession sequence, but did the jumper have control?

Walter's sequence has to deal with a violation after control has been established, back court, traveling or double dribble, because team A control has been established the arrow goes to team B, and when A-2 violates, team B get's the ball for a throw-in, but does not loose the possession arrow.

Hammerhoops, by asking quetions like this, it forces debate and that makes us referees better at this great game. Keep'em coming!

Good luck in the upcomming season.

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Don

[Mark Padgett]

quote:

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Originally posted by Alaska Ref:
I believe Rainmaker has it right!

The jumpers can not establish "control" until a couple of things happen---Ball hits the floor, a non-jumper or the backboard. It's a violation but some are saying you have to have "control" to violate.

Question: A-1 is standing with one foot on the sideline, the ball becomes loose and hits A-1 (who causes the ball to be "out of bounds") a violation by rule, but did A-1 have control? If jumper A-1 taps the ball out of bounds team B gets the ball for a throw-in and the "first possession" and establish's the Alternating Possession sequence, but did the jumper have control?

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It makes things easier if you remember two things: 1) definition of player control - player control is defined as a player dribbling or holding a live ball inbounds and 2) loss of team control - a team loses control is one of the following ways a) the other team gains control, b) there is a dead ball, c) there is a try or tap.

In your question above, A1, who is standing with one foot on the sideline, could not have had "control" even if he had caught the ball first before losing it OOB, since he was OOB due to his foot being on the line. He would not have been dribbling or holding a live ball inbounds, hence no player control possible.

[BktBallRef]

From The Official's Guide: Basketball '99-00
by George Demetriou, Steven Ellinger & Bill Topp, page 49

2. AP: Setting arrow when jumper catches toss

Following the jump bewtween A1 and B5 to start the game, the tapped ball: ... (b) is caught by A1. Ruling: ...In (b), Team B will also have a throw-in because it is a violation for a jumper to catch the ball and will have the arrow since A1 had control when catching the tapped ball.

[hoopsrefBC]

quote:

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Originally posted by BktBallRef:
From The Official's Guide: Basketball '99-00
by George Demetriou, Steven Ellinger & Bill Topp, page 49

2. AP: Setting arrow when jumper catches toss

Following the jump bewtween A1 and B5 to start the game, the tapped ball: ... (b) is caught by A1. Ruling: ...In (b), Team B will also have a throw-in because it is a violation for a jumper to catch the ball and will have the arrow since A1 had control when catching the tapped ball.

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I agree in NFHS rules, however the NCAA sees it different. Check above message for ruling(interpretations) out of the rule books.

keep smiling.

[BktBallRef]

quote:

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Originally posted by hoopsrefBC:
I agree in NFHS rules, however the NCAA sees it different. Check above message for ruling(interpretations) out of the rule books.

keep smiling.

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I have no doubt that you are correct. It wasn't my intetnion to address the NCAA, just NF.

[hoopsrefBC]

In the NCAA rule book it says on the first page of the interpretations that the NCAA and the NFHS use the same interpretations. Is this not right or are there supplemental interpretations put forth by each

Thanks for the help everyone.

keep smiling
SH