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Thu Jul 06, 2000, 10:43pm
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I came across this site trying to find more information on the rules of basketball. I am a new official and I'm always trying to learn more about this awesome game! I cannot believe how much I did not know about the game, even when I played it for many years. I plan on using this forum a lot to learn more from others if you don't mind. I could ask you a hundred questions, but one will do for now.
On the opening tip, if one of the players jumping catches the ball, I know it is a violation, but who gets the next possession on a jump ball? I am guessing the team who did not catch the ball on the jump. Am I right? I want to make sure because this happened in a game recently and the other official I was working with did not know either. Thanks! 
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 09:10am
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I believe you are correct. The team that catches the ball on the opening tip establishes possession. So the next possession goes to the other team. The fact that they committed the violation does not affect the possession arrow.
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 09:58am
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quote: The arrow would belong to team which didn't catch the ball. I try to prevent this from happening by telling the two jumpers immediately before the toss "Straight up on the jump, don't catch it before someone else touches it." Maybe these words have prevented it from happening to me. Good luck in your officiating career. This forum is a great place to visit, especially during the school season when there's lots of activity.
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 11:55am
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I disagree. As I understand the case:
Jump ball between A1 and B1. A1 touches the ball and B1 catches it before it hits the floor, another player or the backboard. Clear violation on B1. Team A gets pocession. Team B that violated gets the arrow for the next pocession. Rule 6.3.1 says that"...control may be set by a violation or foul...".
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 01:09pm
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John - it doesn't work that way. This is a "double-whammy" mistake for B1. B1 gains the first possession by catching the ball as a jumper on the opening jump ball. Unfortunately, this is a violation. So, Team A will have possession of the ball for an inbound and will also have the arrow in their favour. Bad move by B1.
Cheers, David
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 02:32pm
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I'm sorry, but I'm with John. The jumper cannot establish possession, the possession is determined by the violation.
Team A got first possession by the violation, arrow goes to Team B. ------------------ Brian Johnson
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 02:57pm
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I have to agree with David. According to the NF case book if A1 catches the ball then B will have the throw-in due to the violation and also the arrow for the first alternating possession throw-in since A had control when he caught the ball.
This falls under NF rule 6.3 and it is referenced as case 6.3.1c. The actual wording is this: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: d) is caught by A1. Ruling: In d) Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and also the arrow for the first alternating-possession throw-in as A1 had control when he/she caught the ball. Laurie
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 05:33pm
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NF and NCAA can't agree on this either. It is my opinion that control and the violation occur at exactly the same time (i.e. when the ball is caught). So, somebody has to decide (by rule) which occurred first for consistency.
Unfortunately, NF and NCAA decided differently. If A1 catches the ball, NF rule interpretation is that control was established, and then the violation. NF Case 6.3.1C(d): "...A1 had control when he/she caught the ball." So B gets the ball, AND the arrow. Same play, NCAA interpretation is that the violation occurred before the possession. NCAA Interpretation 6.2.5: "...A1 catches the tossed ball... The first legal possession is by B1 on the throw-in. As soon as the throw-in by B1 ends, the AP arrow is changed toward team A." So B gets the ball, BUT A gets the arrow.
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 06:12pm
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As you've read above, under NF rules, if A1 (the jumper) catches the ball before it has touched another player outside the circle, touched the backboard or touched the floor, then team B gets the ball OOB and team B also gets the arrow.
As to the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg, er, I mean, the catch or the violation, I think the NF has it right. It's the catching of the ball which causes the violation. It's the same as saying, during play, that stepping on the sideline creates the violation. No one would argue in that case that the stepping came before the violation, if one has to come before the other. YOu don't blow the whistle before the act that causes the violation, do you?
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 08:59pm
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Once again Mark Padgett has explained it in a very common sense approach. There is no violation UNTIL a jumper catches the ball and secures control. If he does not catch the ball then there is no violation. Therefore, by definition, the catch (and possession) have to come before the violation.
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Fri Jul 07, 2000, 09:10pm
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So, sounds like NF wins the logic contest, but leaves team A with the double-whammy.
NCAA specifically rules to eliminate the double-whammy, but in doing so violates the logic (which is OK). Did I get that right? (I knew the original answer for NFHS, but I do not work college, so don't follow their rules.)
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Sat Jul 08, 2000, 12:07am
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Thanks for the replies! Now I know the correct call.
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Sat Jul 08, 2000, 03:35pm
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Instead of just leaving this topic with some of you thinking the NF decided to make some kind of goofy rule up regarding this, let me take a moment to explain how this ruling is completely consistent with the theory of NF rules regarding alternating possession.
At the beginning of the game (or an extra period), obviously there is no team possession prior to a team gaining team control as a result of the jump ball. By definition, when a jumper catches the jump, he has established team control. This is because that during a time of no team control, team control is established when a player gains player control. A1 gains player control by "holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds", thus establishing team control for team A. Because of this, the arrow is set immediately for team B, not when team B goes to inbound because of the violation. The setting of the arrow and the calling of the violation are two separate acts, not related. The theory behind making it a violation for a jumper to catch the tip before other players other than the jumpers have had the opportunity to acquire control of the tip should be obvious. If this rule didn't exist, you could just have the tallest jumper catch every tip. Then it wouldn't be a tip, it would be something else. To get this rule right, and it does happen every once in a while, just remember two things: 1) A1 catching the ball establishes next possession for B the same way as if any member of A got possession legally after the tip and 2) the subsequent violation call has no effect on the already-established possession.
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Sun Jul 09, 2000, 03:46am
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[/QUOTE] To get this rule right, and it does happen every once in a while, just remember two things: 1) A1 catching the ball establishes next possession for B the same way as if any member of A got possession legally after the tip and 2) the subsequent violation call has no effect on the already-established possession.[/B][/QUOTE]
I am going to memorize this paragraph to use as explanation to basically everyone if and when this happens in one of my games. Getting the rule straight in my head takes some work, but is do-able. Getting the call right takes practice and experience. Explanation to the rest of society takes wisdom far beyond my years, yet, so this is a big help! Thanks, Mark!
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