Travel or Jump Ball?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Since the player isn't airborne, you have to use the "other part," which states "hands". One hand isn't enough, IOW.

That said, always listen to bob.

Hmmmmm ~~ A1 & B1 are opponents, right? One hand of A1 & one hand of B1 are hands, right?

Not saying it would happen that way... but I dont think they meant the defender has to have 2 hands on the ball. I've seen the offense pick up the ball with two hands & the defender reach out with one hand & cuff it so firmly that undue roughness has occured prior to the travel.

Any case plays out there besides the airborne player sitch?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Apologies to Frank Sinatra.)





A few other held ball, or travel, situations from the files of the Mythbusters:

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

I would disagree with this. Even if the player just "touches" the ball as you state, if it somehow prevents him from releasing it and he comes back to the floor without ever bobbling it or losing secure possession of the basketball that is a jump ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I would disagree with this. Even if the player just "touches" the ball as you state, if it somehow prevents him from releasing it and he comes back to the floor without ever bobbling it or losing secure possession of the basketball that is a jump ball.

I think you misunderstood Billy's poing (which is hilariously ironic). He's stating that if the defender simply touches the ball and that touch does not prevent the release of the shot, it's a travel.

Real world: not likely to happen that way, as most of us will deem any touch to have prevented the release. OTOH, it's possible to have a travel even if the ball is touched by the defender on this play.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think you misunderstood Billy's poing (which is hilariously ironic). He's stating that if the defender simply touches the ball and that touch does not prevent the release of the shot, it's a travel.

Real world: not likely to happen that way, as most of us will deem any touch to have prevented the release. OTOH, it's possible to have a travel even if the ball is touched by the defender on this play.

Snaqs, I am just not understanding then. It sounds like you said the same thing as Billy said. How is it possible to have a travel when a player touches the ball, preventing it from being released in his hands and coming back to the floor with it?? and I don't mean a capped ball I mean the player swipes at it, hits the ball, and the player never loses control and comes back to the floor... I used to think that was a travel as well about 4 or 5 years ago.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Snaqs, I am just not understanding then. It sounds like you said the same thing as Billy said. How is it possible to have a travel when a player touches the ball, preventing it from being released in his hands and coming back to the floor with it?? and I don't mean a capped ball I mean the player swipes at it, hits the ball, and the player never loses control and comes back to the floor... I used to think that was a travel as well about 4 or 5 years ago.

I was wrong, you understood him correctly.

It's possible, just not likely that I'm going to rule it a travel.

Consider this: A1 gathers and rises to shoot. On his way up, B1 swipes and brushes the ball; but has no effect on it or the shooter.
A1 continues to rise with his jump and gets the ball into shooting position as B2 rises into position to block the shot. A1 gets flustered and forgets to release the ball due to B2's presence.

Your call?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

2) On a rules test? No. In a game? 95% of the time Yes.

Right, didn't mean the rules test. Here, my mind was on the "trigger."

When a pivot foot comes up and goes back down, that's a trigger in my mind. That's a travel. However, if the trigger occurs when the defense is pinning the ball, then it's a held ball. That's where I was going.

You mentioned 95% of the time, Bob. What would be a minority case where this wouldn't be a held ball?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was wrong, you understood him correctly.

It's possible, just not likely that I'm going to rule it a travel.

Consider this: A1 gathers and rises to shoot. On his way up, B1 swipes and brushes the ball; but has no effect on it or the shooter.
A1 continues to rise with his jump and gets the ball into shooting position as B2 rises into position to block the shot. A1 gets flustered and forgets to release the ball due to B2's presence.

Your call?

my ruling would be a jump ball because the player did touch the ball and the player possessed the ball the whole time. on this particular play i don't believe it is up to me to determine if he got flustered or not, just the fact that I know the defender touches the ball and that the player came back to the floor while never losing solid possession of the basketball.

NCAA Rule 4 Section 37 b

a held ball occurs when an opponent places his or her hand(s):

b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or
attempting a try and both players return to the playing court with
both hands on the ball or (men) the airborne player returns to the
playing court never losing control of the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

my ruling would be a jump ball because the player did touch the ball and the player possessed the ball the whole time. on this particular play i don't believe it is up to me to determine if he got flustered or not, just the fact that I know the defender touches the ball and that the player came back to the floor while never losing solid possession of the basketball.

You're entitled to that, obviously, but by rule, that's a travel, as the defensive touch did not prevent the shot from being released. It is up to us to make that decision; big bucks and all that....

Again, in order to actually call this a travel, it would have to be obvious to Grandma in the cheap seats that the defensive touch didn't prevent the shot from being released.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Right, didn't mean the rules test. Here, my mind was on the "trigger."

When a pivot foot comes up and goes back down, that's a trigger in my mind. That's a travel. However, if the trigger occurs when the defense is pinning the ball, then it's a held ball. That's where I was going.

You mentioned 95% of the time, Bob. What would be a minority case where this wouldn't be a held ball?

Well, if you thought A1 could release the ball anyway, or if the pivot foot was up, and 95% down and then B1 touches the ball just as the foot hits, or it's a blowout game, A1 is winning big and the arrow favors A.

[tref]

So time & score does matter in managing a ballgame correctly?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

my ruling would be a jump ball because the player did touch the ball and the player possessed the ball the whole time. on this particular play i don't believe it is up to me to determine if he got flustered or not, just the fact that I know the defender touches the ball and that the player came back to the floor while never losing solid possession of the basketball.

NCAA Rule 4 Section 37 b

a held ball occurs when an opponent places his or her hand(s):

b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or
attempting a try and both players return to the playing court with
both hands on the ball or (men) the airborne player returns to the
playing court never losing control of the ball.

Ben, if B1 somehow touches the ball as the shooter is going up and the shooter continues his motion without B1 contacting the ball then A1 decides to return to the ground or (while airborne) decides to drop the ball to start a dribble there is no way I'm ruling that a held ball.

[btaylor64]

I revised my post please check above. I actually cited the NCAA rule and everything!!! haha The rule sounds to me like if player puts their hand on the ball and the player does not lose possession that it is a jump ball situation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

...NCAA Rule 4 Section 37 b

a held ball occurs when an opponent places his or her hand(s):

b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try and both players return to the playing court with both hands on the ball or (men) the airborne player returns to the playing court never losing control of the ball.

The bolded part makes this a judgement call. A mere touch isn't going to do it for me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tref

So time & score does matter in managing a ballgame correctly?

The last part was mostly tongue in cheek.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The bolded part makes this a judgement call. A mere touch isn't going to do it for me.

It doesn't say "AND" or "AND/OR" it just says "OR" and I take that to mean that this can happen and it is a jump ball OR this can happen and it is still a jump ball. they are separate acts of which both, SEPARATELY, are considered jump balls. The two aren't intertwined by saying "AND" or "AND/OR"