Travel or Jump Ball?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I would disagree with this. Even if the player just "touches" the ball as you state, if it somehow prevents him from releasing it and he comes back to the floor without ever bobbling it or losing secure possession of the basketball that is a jump ball.

I think you misunderstood Billy's poing (which is hilariously ironic). He's stating that if the defender simply touches the ball and that touch does not prevent the release of the shot, it's a travel.

Real world: not likely to happen that way, as most of us will deem any touch to have prevented the release. OTOH, it's possible to have a travel even if the ball is touched by the defender on this play.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think you misunderstood Billy's poing (which is hilariously ironic). He's stating that if the defender simply touches the ball and that touch does not prevent the release of the shot, it's a travel.

Real world: not likely to happen that way, as most of us will deem any touch to have prevented the release. OTOH, it's possible to have a travel even if the ball is touched by the defender on this play.

Snaqs, I am just not understanding then. It sounds like you said the same thing as Billy said. How is it possible to have a travel when a player touches the ball, preventing it from being released in his hands and coming back to the floor with it?? and I don't mean a capped ball I mean the player swipes at it, hits the ball, and the player never loses control and comes back to the floor... I used to think that was a travel as well about 4 or 5 years ago.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Snaqs, I am just not understanding then. It sounds like you said the same thing as Billy said. How is it possible to have a travel when a player touches the ball, preventing it from being released in his hands and coming back to the floor with it?? and I don't mean a capped ball I mean the player swipes at it, hits the ball, and the player never loses control and comes back to the floor... I used to think that was a travel as well about 4 or 5 years ago.

I was wrong, you understood him correctly.

It's possible, just not likely that I'm going to rule it a travel.

Consider this: A1 gathers and rises to shoot. On his way up, B1 swipes and brushes the ball; but has no effect on it or the shooter.
A1 continues to rise with his jump and gets the ball into shooting position as B2 rises into position to block the shot. A1 gets flustered and forgets to release the ball due to B2's presence.

Your call?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was wrong, you understood him correctly.

It's possible, just not likely that I'm going to rule it a travel.

Consider this: A1 gathers and rises to shoot. On his way up, B1 swipes and brushes the ball; but has no effect on it or the shooter.
A1 continues to rise with his jump and gets the ball into shooting position as B2 rises into position to block the shot. A1 gets flustered and forgets to release the ball due to B2's presence.

Your call?

my ruling would be a jump ball because the player did touch the ball and the player possessed the ball the whole time. on this particular play i don't believe it is up to me to determine if he got flustered or not, just the fact that I know the defender touches the ball and that the player came back to the floor while never losing solid possession of the basketball.

NCAA Rule 4 Section 37 b

a held ball occurs when an opponent places his or her hand(s):

b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or
attempting a try and both players return to the playing court with
both hands on the ball or (men) the airborne player returns to the
playing court never losing control of the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

my ruling would be a jump ball because the player did touch the ball and the player possessed the ball the whole time. on this particular play i don't believe it is up to me to determine if he got flustered or not, just the fact that I know the defender touches the ball and that the player came back to the floor while never losing solid possession of the basketball.

You're entitled to that, obviously, but by rule, that's a travel, as the defensive touch did not prevent the shot from being released. It is up to us to make that decision; big bucks and all that....

Again, in order to actually call this a travel, it would have to be obvious to Grandma in the cheap seats that the defensive touch didn't prevent the shot from being released.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

my ruling would be a jump ball because the player did touch the ball and the player possessed the ball the whole time. on this particular play i don't believe it is up to me to determine if he got flustered or not, just the fact that I know the defender touches the ball and that the player came back to the floor while never losing solid possession of the basketball.

NCAA Rule 4 Section 37 b

a held ball occurs when an opponent places his or her hand(s):

b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or
attempting a try and both players return to the playing court with
both hands on the ball or (men) the airborne player returns to the
playing court never losing control of the ball.

Ben, if B1 somehow touches the ball as the shooter is going up and the shooter continues his motion without B1 contacting the ball then A1 decides to return to the ground or (while airborne) decides to drop the ball to start a dribble there is no way I'm ruling that a held ball.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

...NCAA Rule 4 Section 37 b

a held ball occurs when an opponent places his or her hand(s):

b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try and both players return to the playing court with both hands on the ball or (men) the airborne player returns to the playing court never losing control of the ball.

The bolded part makes this a judgement call. A mere touch isn't going to do it for me.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The bolded part makes this a judgement call. A mere touch isn't going to do it for me.

It doesn't say "AND" or "AND/OR" it just says "OR" and I take that to mean that this can happen and it is a jump ball OR this can happen and it is still a jump ball. they are separate acts of which both, SEPARATELY, are considered jump balls. The two aren't intertwined by saying "AND" or "AND/OR"

[tref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

It doesn't say "AND" or "AND/OR" it just says "OR" and I take that to mean that this can happen and it is a jump ball OR this can happen and it is still a jump ball. they are separate acts of which both, SEPARATELY, are considered jump balls. The two aren't intertwined by saying "AND" or "AND/OR"

Just like rules that use "shall" & "may" the key words help us make the right call & sometimes gives us options.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

It doesn't say "AND" or "AND/OR" it just says "OR" and I take that to mean that this can happen and it is a jump ball OR this can happen and it is still a jump ball. they are separate acts of which both, SEPARATELY, are considered jump balls. The two aren't intertwined by saying "AND" or "AND/OR"

b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try and both players return to the playing court with both hands on the ball or (men) the airborne player returns to the playing court never losing control of the ball.

Notice that after the word "or" is "men" in parenthesis. This mean's something from the first part of the passage has to occur. The only logical phrase that we can combine with what follows after "or" is:

"On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try and ".

So now we have:

On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try and the airborne player returns to the playing court never losing control of the ball.

So as I said before, IMO, a mere touch does not necessarily mean the defender PREVENTED the airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

It doesn't say "AND" or "AND/OR" it just says "OR" and I take that to mean that this can happen and it is a jump ball OR this can happen and it is still a jump ball. they are separate acts of which both, SEPARATELY, are considered jump balls. The two aren't intertwined by saying "AND" or "AND/OR"

I think you're too focussed on the semantics (note, I'm not even delving into it). Instead, I'm considering that I doubt the committee's intent was to give the shooter the ability to land w/o violation just because a defender happens to brush the ball.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

NCAA Rule 4 Section 37 b

a held ball occurs when an opponent places his or her hand(s):

b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or
attempting a try and both players return to the playing court with
both hands on the ball or (men) the airborne player returns to the
playing court never losing control of the ball.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The bolded part makes this a judgement call. A mere touch isn't going to do it for me.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

It doesn't say "AND" or "AND/OR" it just says "OR" and I take that to mean that this can happen and it is a jump ball OR this can happen and it is still a jump ball. they are separate acts of which both, SEPARATELY, are considered jump balls. The two aren't intertwined by saying "AND" or "AND/OR"

You are caught up on the wrong "OR". I agree that either situation around the "OR" you're referring to can independently lead to the violation.

The key part of this that I think you are missing is highlighted above. A mere touch doesn't necessarily "prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try".

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I would disagree with this. Even if the player just "touches" the ball as you state, if it somehow prevents him from releasing it and he comes back to the floor without ever bobbling it or losing secure possession of the basketball that is a jump ball.

At the NFHS level you would be wrong. Billy is correct.
The NFHS even has a case book play which says it is a travel, yet you wish to always call a held ball. (btw held ball is the proper term, not jump ball)

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Snaqs, I am just not understanding then. It sounds like you said the same thing as Billy said. How is it possible to have a travel when a player touches the ball, preventing it from being released in his hands and coming back to the floor with it?? and I don't mean a capped ball I mean the player swipes at it, hits the ball, and the player never loses control and comes back to the floor... I used to think that was a travel as well about 4 or 5 years ago.

Too bad that your pro philosophy changed your thinking. You were better off 4 or 5 years ago.