Another travel vs. jump ball

Smitty · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 02:05pm

I had a girl driving the lane, picks up her dribble and holds the ball down by her hip as she begins her steps to start a layup. She is not airborne, but has started her shooting motion. A defender reaches over and gets a hand on the ball, but it is not a case where I would call a normal jump ball. But the shooter loses her rhythm and ends up taking an extra step while she tries to regrip the ball, while the defender's hand is still on the ball, but not holding the ball. I called a travel. Wasn't a popular call. Did I get it right?

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 02:14pm

Did the dribbler lose player control of the ball?

Did the defender prevent the ball from being released?

Sounds like a held ball to me.

Smitty · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 02:21pm

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Originally posted by BktBallRef
Did the dribbler lose player control of the ball?

No she did not lose control of the ball, she just lost a bit of her grip due to the defender having her hand on the ball and impeding her motion.

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Did the defender prevent the ball from being released?

Well sort of, but she didn't have a grip on the ball like I would normally expect for a true "held ball". The key, I think, is that the shooter was not yet airborne, which removes the possibility of just having a hand on the ball preventing the shot causing a jump ball situation, right? So since the shooter was not airborne, a held ball would only occur if the defender has a grip on the ball such that neither can pull it away without a wrestling match. Or is it still possible to have a jump ball with just a hand on the ball with no real grip on it?

Quote:

Sounds like a held ball to me.

Cool...thank you.

joseph2493 · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 02:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Did the dribbler lose player control of the ball?

Did the defender prevent the ball from being released?

Sounds like a held ball to me.

If not a held ball, at the least sounds like she lost control. Can't travel if you don't have control of the ball.

Smitty · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by joseph2493

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Did the dribbler lose player control of the ball?

Did the defender prevent the ball from being released?

Sounds like a held ball to me.

If not a held ball, at the least sounds like she lost control. Can't travel if you don't have control of the ball.

The ball was still in her hands - it never came out of her hands. She merely lost a bit of her grip and momentum since the defender's hand was on the ball as well, so it forced her to take an extra step.

BktBallRef · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 02:26pm

If you have any doubt, signal held ball.

rainmaker · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 04:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty

Quote:

Originally posted by joseph2493

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Did the dribbler lose player control of the ball?

Did the defender prevent the ball from being released?

Sounds like a held ball to me.

If not a held ball, at the least sounds like she lost control. Can't travel if you don't have control of the ball.

The ball was still in her hands - it never came out of her hands. She merely lost a bit of her grip and momentum since the defender's hand was on the ball as well, so it forced her to take an extra step.

I've seen stuff like this a time or two, and wondered what to call. I usually use it as a make-up opportun... no, wait, I didn't really say that. Didn't even think it. The demon has been exorcised, and will have no further say in the matter.

Smitty · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 04:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty

Quote:

Originally posted by joseph2493

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Did the dribbler lose player control of the ball?

Did the defender prevent the ball from being released?

Sounds like a held ball to me.

If not a held ball, at the least sounds like she lost control. Can't travel if you don't have control of the ball.

The ball was still in her hands - it never came out of her hands. She merely lost a bit of her grip and momentum since the defender's hand was on the ball as well, so it forced her to take an extra step.

I've seen stuff like this a time or two, and wondered what to call. I usually use it as a make-up opportun... no, wait, I didn't really say that. Didn't even think it. The demon has been exorcised, and will have no further say in the matter.

Do you remember what you did call? In the split second it took me between blowing the whistle and determining which way I would call it, I just decided that it couldn't be a held ball because the defender just had a hand on the ball and the shooter wasn't airborne yet. I still didn't feel completely comfortable, but now I do. I think I made the right call after all the talk today about this type of situation.

rainmaker · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 05:12pm

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Originally posted by Smitty

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
[B
The ball was still in her hands - it never came out of her hands. She merely lost a bit of her grip and momentum since the defender's hand was on the ball as well, so it forced her to take an extra step.

I've seen stuff like this a time or two, and wondered what to call. I usually use it as a make-up opportun... no, wait, I didn't really say that. Didn't even think it. The demon has been exorcised, and will have no further say in the matter.

Do you remember what you did call? In the split second it took me between blowing the whistle and determining which way I would call it, I just decided that it couldn't be a held ball because the defender just had a hand on the ball and the shooter wasn't airborne yet. I still didn't feel completely comfortable, but now I do. I think I made the right call after all the talk today about this type of situation. [/B]

At the lower levels, I call a jump. I call a jump as soon as there's any theoretical possibility that two opponents have control. At JV and Varsity, I try to really determine if the defender really had some control, or if it was a fumble, or if the dribbler got a little lazy (travel). Sounds like that's what you did, and you feel you got it right. Sounds great to me!

just another ref · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 21, 2005, 01:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
....it couldn't be a held ball because the defender just had a hand on the ball and the shooter wasn't airborne yet.

Why not? What is this based on?

Smitty · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 21, 2005, 10:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by just another ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
....it couldn't be a held ball because the defender just had a hand on the ball and the shooter wasn't airborne yet.

Why not? What is this based on?

Based on the held ball rule where both players need to have a grip on the ball such that neither could pull the ball away without a wrestling match. And the rule that's been stated a couple of times already in other threads where getting a hand on the ball to prevent a shot or pass by an airborne player results in a held ball. There's no rule that covers having only a hand on the ball to prevent a pass or shot from a non-airborne player.

rainmaker · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 21, 2005, 11:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty

Quote:

Originally posted by just another ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
....it couldn't be a held ball because the defender just had a hand on the ball and the shooter wasn't airborne yet.

Why not? What is this based on?

Based on the held ball rule where both players need to have a grip on the ball such that neither could pull the ball away without a wrestling match. And the rule that's been stated a couple of times already in other threads where getting a hand on the ball to prevent a shot or pass by an airborne player results in a held ball. There's no rule that covers having only a hand on the ball to prevent a pass or shot from a non-airborne player.

If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, it must be a duck.

Jurassic Referee · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 21, 2005, 12:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, it must be a duck.

[/B][/QUOTE]Not necessarily.

Case in point? Me.

Smitty · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 21, 2005, 12:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty

Quote:

Originally posted by just another ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
....it couldn't be a held ball because the defender just had a hand on the ball and the shooter wasn't airborne yet.

Why not? What is this based on?

Based on the held ball rule where both players need to have a grip on the ball such that neither could pull the ball away without a wrestling match. And the rule that's been stated a couple of times already in other threads where getting a hand on the ball to prevent a shot or pass by an airborne player results in a held ball. There's no rule that covers having only a hand on the ball to prevent a pass or shot from a non-airborne player.

If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, it must be a duck.

Not sure which thing is the duck in this case. I don't get it.

rainmaker · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 21, 2005, 12:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty

Quote:

Originally posted by just another ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
....it couldn't be a held ball because the defender just had a hand on the ball and the shooter wasn't airborne yet.

Why not? What is this based on?

Based on the held ball rule where both players need to have a grip on the ball such that neither could pull the ball away without a wrestling match. And the rule that's been stated a couple of times already in other threads where getting a hand on the ball to prevent a shot or pass by an airborne player results in a held ball. There's no rule that covers having only a hand on the ball to prevent a pass or shot from a non-airborne player.

If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, it must be a duck.

Not sure which thing is the duck in this case. I don't get it.

If it looks like a held ball, smells like a held ball, sounds like a held ball, it must be a held ball. I'm just saying to you what people on this board have said to me over the years, don't overthink things. In the case you cited, you called a foul. That was probably a good call. In another very similar situation, you might call a held ball, because that's just how it felt. When I trust my training, and call as a reaction, before I think about it, I usually get it right. I think you probably do, too. keep working on training your instincts, but also keep trusting them.