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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 03, 2011, 10:57pm
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Snaqs and Judtech:

My question was a rhetorical question. There is absolutely NO reason for a defender to put his hands on the ball handler PERIOD. To do so is a FOUL.

MTD, Sr.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 03, 2011, 11:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Snaqs and Judtech:

My question was a rhetorical question. There is absolutely NO reason for a defender to put his hands on the ball handler PERIOD. To do so is a FOUL.

MTD, Sr.
I knew that and agreed with your point.
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Old Fri Mar 04, 2011, 09:12am
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Chalk me up on the side of it is a foul to hand check.

Advantage/Disadvantage does not come into play because it is obviously an advantage to hand check. Anyone who has ever played knows this.

Why would a defender put his/her hands on their opponent if it was not an advantage? Why would the defender take a chance on having a foul called if it was not an advantage? As a player, when I was younger if a defensive player put his hands on me it would start with yelling to get your hands off and if that did not work things would escalate. I have changed with age but it was an advantage in those days and still is.

As a ref, I agree with Bob and use the college women's advice. I allow the 'hot stove' touch but call the foul when the hand stays on. Just like any foul call once the players understand how things will be called they adjust.

Refs not understanding that this is a foul is one of the reasons the game has often deteriorated into clutching and grabbing and the speed and quickness of the game has often times been lost.
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Old Fri Mar 04, 2011, 09:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopguy View Post
Chalk me up on the side of it is a foul to hand check.

Advantage/Disadvantage does not come into play because it is obviously an advantage to hand check. Anyone who has ever played knows this.

Why would a defender put his/her hands on their opponent if it was not an advantage? Why would the defender take a chance on having a foul called if it was not an advantage? As a player, when I was younger if a defensive player put his hands on me it would start with yelling to get your hands off and if that did not work things would escalate. I have changed with age but it was an advantage in those days and still is.

As a ref, I agree with Bob and use the college women's advice. I allow the 'hot stove' touch but call the foul when the hand stays on. Just like any foul call once the players understand how things will be called they adjust.

Refs not understanding that this is a foul is one of the reasons the game has often deteriorated into clutching and grabbing and the speed and quickness of the game has often times been lost.
I know this is an area that I need to improve. I probably call a hand check once or twice a game in 2 out of 3 games I officiate. I know it occurs more often than that.
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Old Fri Mar 04, 2011, 12:21pm
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Originally Posted by hoopguy View Post
Chalk me up on the side of it is a foul to hand check.

Advantage/Disadvantage does not come into play because it is obviously an advantage to hand check. Anyone who has ever played knows this.
That is direct conflict with 4-27-3. So there still has to be an advantage for a foul or you are not following a rule. I have never heard how POEs or language in POEs trump actual rules language.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopguy View Post
Why would a defender put his/her hands on their opponent if it was not an advantage? Why would the defender take a chance on having a foul called if it was not an advantage? As a player, when I was younger if a defensive player put his hands on me it would start with yelling to get your hands off and if that did not work things would escalate. I have changed with age but it was an advantage in those days and still is.
Why is not part of the rule.

As a ref, I agree with Bob and use the college women's advice. I allow the 'hot stove' touch but call the foul when the hand stays on. Just like any foul call once the players understand how things will be called they adjust.[/QUOTE]

That works if yoiu are working NCAA Women's basketball as that is the standard. Not the standard at the NCAA Men's level or the NF. At least the NCAA Men's standard wants an advantage and is not in total contradiction of the incidental contact rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopguy View Post
Refs not understanding that this is a foul is one of the reasons the game has often deteriorated into clutching and grabbing and the speed and quickness of the game has often times been lost.
That might be true, but calling fouls when nothing happens to the player is not what the rules suggests either.

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Old Fri Mar 04, 2011, 12:29pm
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Originally Posted by hoopguy View Post

Refs not understanding that this is a foul is one of the reasons the game has often deteriorated into clutching and grabbing and the speed and quickness of the game has often times been lost.
I think that it is more of a case that refs who actually call the hand-checking the way it is written and should be enforced get in trouble with their assignors. Coaches call and complain that the official is "calling too many fouls that don't have an impact on the play" and the officials get the dreaded call from the supervisor. So the next game, they let that handchecking go...

Coaches yell and scream for us to call handchecks on their opponent, but when we call it on them they yell and scream that it is ticky-tack (or whatever word they use).

So some of us have adopted the NCAA-W interp into our HS games...
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Old Fri Mar 04, 2011, 01:04pm
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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Coaches yell and scream for us to call handchecks on their opponent, but when we call it on them they yell and scream that it is ticky-tack (or whatever word they use).

So some of us have adopted the NCAA-W interp into our HS games...
This is my impression as well. I think their complaints gain some force (but only some) from the inconsistency with which officials call handchecks.

I would like to see our association work on consistency for next season, and to communicate to area coaches what's a handcheck and what isn't.

The NCAAW criteria are admirably clear and consistent with the NFHS rule. They're worth adopting explicitly IMO.
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Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 05:00pm
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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Coaches call and complain that the official is "calling too many fouls that don't have an impact on the play" and the officials get the dreaded call from the supervisor.
An assignor who would call and blast an official for making a correct call???? Where in the world would you ever have run into such a thing?
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Old Fri Mar 04, 2011, 01:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopguy View Post
Chalk me up on the side of it is a foul to hand check.

Advantage/Disadvantage does not come into play because it is obviously an advantage to hand check. Anyone who has ever played knows this.

Why would a defender put his/her hands on their opponent if it was not an advantage? Why would the defender take a chance on having a foul called if it was not an advantage? As a player, when I was younger if a defensive player put his hands on me it would start with yelling to get your hands off and if that did not work things would escalate. I have changed with age but it was an advantage in those days and still is.
+1 That was my experience when I played as well even though at that time hand checking was relatively rare.

4-27-3... contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.

I think this is the main point being argued , does hand checking 'hinder'. I believe so and I think the NFHS does also since they keep putting it in the POEs. In my short time as a ref, it seems to me that hand checking usually leads to something akin to WWE smackdown on the low post, and escalating fouls on the guards. If we nail 'em, they'll stop.
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Old Fri Mar 04, 2011, 01:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBrules View Post
4-27-3... contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.

I think this is the main point being argued , does hand checking 'hinder'. I believe so and I think the NFHS does also since they keep putting it in the POEs. In my short time as a ref, it seems to me that hand checking usually leads to something akin to WWE smackdown on the low post, and escalating fouls on the guards. If we nail 'em, they'll stop.
Hand checking and touching are not the same thing. Hand checking is a foul. That part is not being debated at all. What is being debated is when it takes place.

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Old Fri Mar 04, 2011, 01:30pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Hand checking and touching are not the same thing. Hand checking is a foul. That part is not being debated at all. What is being debated is when it takes place.

Peace
I agree! And whether I'm assigned the position of R or the U99 I like to have the crew define what handchecks will be tonight. Since bringing that up in pregame, I've noticed more consistency during the game.
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Old Fri Mar 04, 2011, 04:41pm
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Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Snaqs and Judtech:

My question was a rhetorical question. There is absolutely NO reason for a defender to put his hands on the ball handler PERIOD. To do so is a FOUL.

MTD, Sr.
I THINK I agree with you. From the aspect of an official I do. From the aspect of a player, I may disagree. But since this is an offiicals board, the jury says: AGREE
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