Hand checking

[tref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The clearest explanation is from NCAAW (paraphrased): There are two types of fouls. Contact which causes an advantage, and handchecking. Any handchecking (two hands, one hand for more than a "hot stove" touch, one hand repeatedly) is a foul, regardless of any effect on RSBQ.

Glad I dont do that brand of ball. My #1 line (mere contact doesnt constitute a foul, coach) would be useless.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not really the problem in the OP, though, where the dribbler was moving down the sideline around midcourt.

I agree Snaqs, I was speaking on the "absolute" JR stated:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. If they put a hand on and keep it on, I'm calling it. Every time.

[doubleringer]

Most of the people I work with regularly pre-game that once a post player turns and faces the basket, they are a ball handler and they are treated just as we would treat a guard looking to drive from the top of the key.

As far as the contact on the ball handler anywhere, I find that the "hot stove touch" way of looking at things the NCAA women started using a few years ago helps me be much consistent with contact on the ball handler.

To me, this is possibly the most important aspect to beginning a game. If your guards can move freely, without being bumped and grabbed, you'll have a smooth night. The nights where things get physical out front are the nights that are tougher to manage for me.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The clearest explanation is from NCAAW (paraphrased): There are two types of fouls. Contact which causes an advantage, and handchecking. Any handchecking (two hands, one hand for more than a "hot stove" touch, one hand repeatedly) is a foul, regardless of any effect on RSBQ.

Superbly worded advice. Thanks, Bob.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. If they put a hand on and keep it on, I'm calling it. Every time.

You still working games?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The clearest explanation is from NCAAW (paraphrased): There are two types of fouls. Contact which causes an advantage, and handchecking. Any handchecking (two hands, one hand for more than a "hot stove" touch, one hand repeatedly) is a foul, regardless of any effect on RSBQ.

+1

And afaik NCAAM and the NFHS want it called exactly the same way as NCAAW.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

By rule how? Fouls are not to be called unless there is displacement or some advantage is gained. They did not throw out all the other rules for foul calling because there is a description of a hand check. I only call a foul when the Rhythm, Speed, Balance, or Quickness is changed by the contact. If they play through it I let it go. At that level it is not difficult to have those things changed as I am sure the girls can barely stand and chew gum without falling down. Stop worrying about what an 8th Grade coach thinks anyway.

Peace

I agree that all contact is not a foul and that adv./disadv. applies. How am I supposed to interpret this and previous year's POE?

A. Hand checking.

1) Hand checking is any tactic using the hands or arms that allows a player, on offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow or prevent) the movement of an opposing player. This is a good def. of adv/disadv
2) Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
3) Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul. Seems to expand on what is said in 1) above

[just another ref]

Handchecking is used by the defender to measure the opponent. It allows the defender to supplement his sense of sight with his sense of touch to anticipate the movement of that opponent. Done properly it can provide a great advantage to the defender, even though the actual contact may be minimal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I agree that all contact is not a foul and that adv./disadv. applies. How am I supposed to interpret this and previous year's POE?

A. Hand checking.

1) Hand checking is any tactic using the hands or arms that allows a player, on offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow or prevent) the movement of an opposing player. This is a good def. of adv/disadv
2) Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
3) Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul. Seems to expand on what is said in 1) above

Here's another old NFHS POE on handchecking...

"Regardless of where it takes place on the floor, when a player continuously places a hand on an opposing player, it is a foul."

"When a player places both hands on an opponent, it is a foul."

And next year, no doubt we'll see a similar new POE because of all the officials that want to make up their own rules and ignore what the FED has been tellings to call for years.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I agree that all contact is not a foul and that adv./disadv. applies. How am I supposed to interpret this and previous year's POE?

A. Hand checking.

1) Hand checking is any tactic using the hands or arms that allows a player, on offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow or prevent) the movement of an opposing player. This is a good def. of adv/disadv
2) Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
3) Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul. Seems to expand on what is said in 1) above

Rule 4-27-3 is an even better definition, IMO, of advantage/disadvantage.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I agree that all contact is not a foul and that adv./disadv. applies. How am I supposed to interpret this and previous year's POE?

A. Hand checking.

1) Hand checking is any tactic using the hands or arms that allows a player, on offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow or prevent) the movement of an opposing player. This is a good def. of adv/disadv
2) Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
3) Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul. Seems to expand on what is said in 1) above

I don't think 1 is a definition. It does seem to say that it's not a foul unless there is an advantage.

Item 3 seems, to me, to say it's a foul regardless of advantage.

So, I think items 1 and 3 conflict.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's absolutely ridiculous. You're really going to call a foul using as one of the criteria where it occurs on the court?

We've had almost yearly POE's from the NFHS telling us to call handchecking. That includes THIS year. We also have almost yearly POE's telling us not to make up our own rules. And that also includes THIS year. Obviously, though, it just ain't sinking in.

Lah me....

Think it will be a POE in 2011-12? I am leaning that way.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Think it will be a POE in 2011-12? I am leaning that way.

Just like the boy who cried wolf....

[bainsey]

When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul.

I like it when they try to circumvent this rule by holding -- not jabbing -- a forearm into an opponent.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't think 1 is a definition. It does seem to say that it's not a foul unless there is an advantage.

Item 3 seems, to me, to say it's a foul regardless of advantage.

So, I think items 1 and 3 conflict.

POEs are not rules. If they want to change the rule then change it. But until then incidental contact rules apply, I am not calling this just because someone touched. I am calling a foul when an advantage is gained, PERIOD.

At the Men's side also this is what we call an absolute, but still they ask for some level of RSBQ to call it. That is what I do and it works for me.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

When I played (yes I played, and I played for a coach who was a H.S. basketball official himself (I have told the story before) and who's teams won 16 league championships in 21 years (I played on 2 of them), a defender did NOT put his hand(s) on the offensive player who is in control the ball for any reason. AND I still canNOT understand why a defender needs to put his hand(s) on the offensive player who is in control the ball. The player in control of the ball is right in front the defender to see and there is absolutely NO need for the defender to put his hand(s) on the player who is in control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.