Hand checking

[cmhjordan23]

I don't care about what the coach thinks. I stopped caring long ago. Just looking for an opinion. Basically to reaffirm I made the correct call.In Wisconsin before the start of the season, hand-checking was a point of emphasis, but I still wouldn't call this a foul. Side note- there are some pretty talented 8th grade teams in my area, both boys and girls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23

Side note- there are some pretty talented 8th grade teams in my area, both boys and girls.

Just because you have some talented teams does not mean they can play the same level of a high school or college player either. They just are not as coordinated and savvy.

Don't be so offended when the reality is that most coaches at this level are clueless about what is or is not a foul. Again, you mentioned the level.

Peace

[cmhjordan23]

The only reason I said I might call it different undereneath is the play there is different. Underneath handchecks are more likely to impede offense and cause them to be at a disadvantage. If I have the same exact play underneath as on the sideline, of course I'm not going to call it. I guess sometimes I misinterpret what I am actually trying to say. Sorry.

[refiator]

You gotta call the "Hot Stove". First hand on may be OK, but after that, it is a hand check foul. It the player is driving, let them finish, but a foul call should follow.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by refiator

You gotta call the "Hot Stove". First hand on may be OK, but after that, it is a hand check foul. It the player is driving, let them finish, but a foul call should follow.

I disagree. If you decide to allow the dribbler to play through because he beat his defender, then you can't go back and call an earlier foul and count the basket (I'm making an assumption here from your post, so correct me if I'm wrong.)

[just another ref]

To simplify: If it wasn't gaining him an advantage, he wouldn't do it. If it ever gets called a foul, he really wouldn't do it. So call it, then after that, nobody will do it any more, and this debate will be over.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

By rule how? Fouls are not to be called unless there is displacement or some advantage is gained. They did not throw out all the other rules for foul calling because there is a description of a hand check. I only call a foul when the Rhythm, Speed, Balance, or Quickness is changed by the contact. If they play through it I let it go. At that level it is not difficult to have those things changed as I am sure the girls can barely stand and chew gum without falling down. Stop worrying about what an 8th Grade coach thinks anyway.

Peace

I agree that all contact is not a foul and that adv./disadv. applies. How am I supposed to interpret this and previous year's POE?

A. Hand checking.

1) Hand checking is any tactic using the hands or arms that allows a player, on offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow or prevent) the movement of an opposing player. This is a good def. of adv/disadv
2) Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
3) Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul. Seems to expand on what is said in 1) above

[just another ref]

Handchecking is used by the defender to measure the opponent. It allows the defender to supplement his sense of sight with his sense of touch to anticipate the movement of that opponent. Done properly it can provide a great advantage to the defender, even though the actual contact may be minimal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I agree that all contact is not a foul and that adv./disadv. applies. How am I supposed to interpret this and previous year's POE?

A. Hand checking.

1) Hand checking is any tactic using the hands or arms that allows a player, on offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow or prevent) the movement of an opposing player. This is a good def. of adv/disadv
2) Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
3) Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul. Seems to expand on what is said in 1) above

Here's another old NFHS POE on handchecking...

"Regardless of where it takes place on the floor, when a player continuously places a hand on an opposing player, it is a foul."

"When a player places both hands on an opponent, it is a foul."

And next year, no doubt we'll see a similar new POE because of all the officials that want to make up their own rules and ignore what the FED has been tellings to call for years.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I agree that all contact is not a foul and that adv./disadv. applies. How am I supposed to interpret this and previous year's POE?

A. Hand checking.

1) Hand checking is any tactic using the hands or arms that allows a player, on offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow or prevent) the movement of an opposing player. This is a good def. of adv/disadv
2) Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
3) Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul. Seems to expand on what is said in 1) above

Rule 4-27-3 is an even better definition, IMO, of advantage/disadvantage.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I agree that all contact is not a foul and that adv./disadv. applies. How am I supposed to interpret this and previous year's POE?

A. Hand checking.

1) Hand checking is any tactic using the hands or arms that allows a player, on offense or defense, to control (hold, impede, push, divert, slow or prevent) the movement of an opposing player. This is a good def. of adv/disadv
2) Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
3) Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul. Seems to expand on what is said in 1) above

I don't think 1 is a definition. It does seem to say that it's not a foul unless there is an advantage.

Item 3 seems, to me, to say it's a foul regardless of advantage.

So, I think items 1 and 3 conflict.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't think 1 is a definition. It does seem to say that it's not a foul unless there is an advantage.

Item 3 seems, to me, to say it's a foul regardless of advantage.

So, I think items 1 and 3 conflict.

POEs are not rules. If they want to change the rule then change it. But until then incidental contact rules apply, I am not calling this just because someone touched. I am calling a foul when an advantage is gained, PERIOD.

At the Men's side also this is what we call an absolute, but still they ask for some level of RSBQ to call it. That is what I do and it works for me.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

When I played (yes I played, and I played for a coach who was a H.S. basketball official himself (I have told the story before) and who's teams won 16 league championships in 21 years (I played on 2 of them), a defender did NOT put his hand(s) on the offensive player who is in control the ball for any reason. AND I still canNOT understand why a defender needs to put his hand(s) on the offensive player who is in control the ball. The player in control of the ball is right in front the defender to see and there is absolutely NO need for the defender to put his hand(s) on the player who is in control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.

[tref]

If the "hand check" doesn't affect ball handlers RSBQ nor puts them at a disadvantage, by rule, how can it be a foul?

Why would you call it differently "under the basket?" Surely, more contact will occur the closer the action gets to the rim.

The only thing I'd do differently is call hand checks a push below the FT line extended.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23

Under the basket I might have called it differently(I didn't tell him that)

That's absolutely ridiculous. You're really going to call a foul using as one of the criteria where it occurs on the court?

We've had almost yearly POE's from the NFHS telling us to call handchecking. That includes THIS year. We also have almost yearly POE's telling us not to make up our own rules. And that also includes THIS year. Obviously, though, it just ain't sinking in.

Lah me....