The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #46 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 08:02am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by refiator View Post
You gotta call the "Hot Stove". First hand on may be OK, but after that, it is a hand check foul. It the player is driving, let them finish, but a foul call should follow.
I disagree. If you decide to allow the dribbler to play through because he beat his defender, then you can't go back and call an earlier foul and count the basket (I'm making an assumption here from your post, so correct me if I'm wrong.)
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 10:51am
Aleve Titles to Others
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East Westchester of the Southern Conference
Posts: 5,381
Send a message via AIM to 26 Year Gap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I disagree. If you decide to allow the dribbler to play through because he beat his defender, then you can't go back and call an earlier foul and count the basket (I'm making an assumption here from your post, so correct me if I'm wrong.)
+1 He played through the contact. Unless the contact continued up to the pick up of the dribble as part of the layup attempt.
__________________
Never hit a piñata if you see hornets flying out of it.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 11:17am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap View Post
+1 He played through the contact. Unless the contact continued up to the pick up of the dribble as part of the layup attempt.
And this is why all hand checking is not called and never will be and probably shouldn't be.

If a player has his hand on a ball handler, are we calling a foul or waiting a beat to see how the ball handler reacts to the hand? Then once the player passes the ball or beats the defender, we have no reason to call the foul.

A quick hand-checking whistle accomplishes what? It stops the game unnecessarily and in some cases deprives the offense of a chance to beat the defender and score an easy basket.
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 12:15pm
Aleve Titles to Others
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East Westchester of the Southern Conference
Posts: 5,381
Send a message via AIM to 26 Year Gap
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
And this is why all hand checking is not called and never will be and probably shouldn't be.

If a player has his hand on a ball handler, are we calling a foul or waiting a beat to see how the ball handler reacts to the hand? Then once the player passes the ball or beats the defender, we have no reason to call the foul.

A quick hand-checking whistle accomplishes what? It stops the game unnecessarily and in some cases deprives the offense of a chance to beat the defender and score an easy basket.
And what I hate, is the reaction out front when the offensive player pushes off the defender. Maybe a double foul in such an instance? I probably just need to be more diligent out front with hand check calls where it seems to occur most often.
__________________
Never hit a piñata if you see hornets flying out of it.
Reply With Quote
  #50 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 12:40pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
To simplify: If it wasn't gaining him an advantage, he wouldn't do it. If it ever gets called a foul, he really wouldn't do it. So call it, then after that, nobody will do it any more, and this debate will be over.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #51 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 02:41pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
To simplify: If it wasn't gaining him an advantage, he wouldn't do it. If it ever gets called a foul, he really wouldn't do it. So call it, then after that, nobody will do it any more, and this debate will be over.
So we should call fouls that are not fouls under any rulebook definition to get someone to stop doing something?

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #52 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 02:49pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
So we should call fouls that are not fouls under any rulebook definition to get someone to stop doing something?

Peace
Read the definition again, and tell me how it isn't a foul.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 02:55pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Basketball is a "non-contact" sport.

Basketball is a "non-contact" sport. What does that statement mean? It means that a player is not allowed to illegally contact an oppenent to gain an advantage not allowed by rule.

I think, that basketball officials, as a whole, have a pretty good handle on what is illegal contact, what is legal contact, and what is incidental contact. I also think, that basketball officials, as a whole, understand "hand checking".

The problem is how we handle the following plays, which is a pretty inclusive example of the situation we all face.

NOTE: Remember, the hands are meant to be used to shoot the ball, pass the ball, dribble the ball, block a shot, block a pass, grab a rebound, or a lose ball.


PLAY 1: A1 is holding a live ball or dribbling the ball while stationary, and B1 repeatedly reaches out and touches A1 with one or both hands.

QUESTION 1: Has B1 comitted a personal foul?

As a "bald old geezer" I consider B1's actions a PF. I can see no reason for B1 to have to reach out and touch A1, a player who is standing right in front of him.


PLAY 2: B2, within the time and distance parameters, sets a blind screen against a moving A1. A1 uses his hind to reach out and feel for any players setting a blind screen against him. When A1's hand makes contact with B2, A1 stops.

QUESTION 2a: Based upon the definition of screening, A1 has not committed a PF.

COMMENT 2: This is an iffy play for me. Why? Lets assume (and we all knows what happens when one makes an assumption), non the less, Team B could be running a playe to draw a foul by A1 (A1 is moving so fast that he will not be able to stop after making body to body contact with B2 and run right thru him) and by using his hands to feel for B2, A1 is able to slow down and either stop upon body to body contact or move around B2.

QUESTION 2b: Has A1 gained an advantage not allowed by the rules in the play in the above COMMENT?


As they say in NASCAR: "Boys have at it."

MTD, Sr.


P.S. I didn't want to say I was "old school" because that would bring up nightmares for some of us long time contributors to this Forum.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #54 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 04:21pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Read the definition again, and tell me how it isn't a foul.
4-27-3 says: "Contact, which similarly may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive and offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe."

4-27-4 says: "Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating defensive or offensive movement should be considered incidental."

Unless I missed something in the actual rulebook, I do not see a thing that says anything about two hands being a foul or not being a foul by rule. Of course the action can and often does affect the player, but these comments above are actually in the rulebook, not in a POE that might not even be in the rulebook in the future. My point is change the rule and you might get us all to agree. But when you just give a guideline, that is all it is, a guideline. When I even read people say that they use the NCAA-W, that is a guideline, not a rule. Just like the "Absolutes" are guidelines in NCAA Men's basketball.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #55 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 04:33pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I didn't want to say I was "old school" because that would bring up nightmares for some of us long time contributors to this Forum.
Just don't say it three time in a row.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #56 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 04:35pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Unless I missed something in the actual rulebook, I do not see a thing that says anything about two hands being a foul or not being a foul by rule.
4-19-1: A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements.

10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand.......



The opinion has been expressed that if the hand is placed on the opponent for an extended length of time, it does provide an advantage, whether the movement of the opponent is obviously affected or not. Given this opinion, it is no trouble to call a foul for even a very slight contact with an extended hand and still find rules support.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 04:37pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
4-19-1: A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements.

10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand.......



The opinion has been expressed that if the hand is placed on the opponent for an extended length of time, it does provide an advantage, whether the movement of the opponent is obviously affected or not. Given this opinion, it is no trouble to call a foul for even a very slight contact with an extended hand and still find rules support.
Depends if this "opinion" is agreed with or not, doesn't it?
Reply With Quote
  #58 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 04:43pm
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Basketball is a "non-contact" sport. What does that statement mean? It means that a player is not allowed to illegally contact an oppenent to gain an advantage not allowed by rule.

I think, that basketball officials, as a whole, have a pretty good handle on what is illegal contact, what is legal contact, and what is incidental contact. I also think, that basketball officials, as a whole, understand "hand checking".

The problem is how we handle the following plays, which is a pretty inclusive example of the situation we all face.

NOTE: Remember, the hands are meant to be used to shoot the ball, pass the ball, dribble the ball, block a shot, block a pass, grab a rebound, or a lose ball.


PLAY 1: A1 is holding a live ball or dribbling the ball while stationary, and B1 repeatedly reaches out and touches A1 with one or both hands.

QUESTION 1: Has B1 comitted a personal foul?

As a "bald old geezer" I consider B1's actions a PF. I can see no reason for B1 to have to reach out and touch A1, a player who is standing right in front of him.


PLAY 2: B2, within the time and distance parameters, sets a blind screen against a moving A1. A1 uses his hind to reach out and feel for any players setting a blind screen against him. When A1's hand makes contact with B2, A1 stops.

QUESTION 2a: Based upon the definition of screening, A1 has not committed a PF.

COMMENT 2: This is an iffy play for me. Why? Lets assume (and we all knows what happens when one makes an assumption), non the less, Team B could be running a playe to draw a foul by A1 (A1 is moving so fast that he will not be able to stop after making body to body contact with B2 and run right thru him) and by using his hands to feel for B2, A1 is able to slow down and either stop upon body to body contact or move around B2.

QUESTION 2b: Has A1 gained an advantage not allowed by the rules in the play in the above COMMENT?


As they say in NASCAR: "Boys have at it."

MTD, Sr.


P.S. I didn't want to say I was "old school" because that would bring up nightmares for some of us long time contributors to this Forum.
Play 1: I'm talking to the kid first.

Play 2: No way that's a foul.
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #59 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 04:58pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Basketball is a "non-contact" sport.
This is a myth, as surely as "over the back" is a mythical foul.

Read NFHS 4-27. As always -- always -- it's essential to know our definitions if we want to know our game.
Reply With Quote
  #60 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 06, 2011, 05:00pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Coaches call and complain that the official is "calling too many fouls that don't have an impact on the play" and the officials get the dreaded call from the supervisor.
An assignor who would call and blast an official for making a correct call???? Where in the world would you ever have run into such a thing?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hand checking RANCHMAN Basketball 35 Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:34pm
Hand Checking MWI Basketball 21 Fri Dec 16, 2005 06:12pm
Hand Checking carldog Basketball 23 Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:40pm
hand checking roadking Basketball 22 Tue Dec 14, 2004 03:28pm
Hand Checking Tim Roden Basketball 5 Tue Nov 06, 2001 01:10am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:57pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1