Some weird situations and a general Q about training

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules.

+1

Much of the time, these leagues/tourneys will say "all high school rules apply" without knowing some of the ones that are drilled into our heads. (Just be prepared for, "well, we didn't mean THAT rule!")

Those illegal defense rules can be problematic, too, particularly, "no pressing if you're up by 10 or more points." You'll just have to keep your eye on the scoreboard at times. Also, I make it clear in pre-game that, if you commit a foul during an illegal defense, the foul still stands. (Some have argued that there should have been a whistle prior to the foul.)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bainsey

+1

Much of the time, these leagues/tourneys will say "all high school rules apply" without knowing some of the ones that are drilled into our heads. (Just be prepared for, "well, we didn't mean THAT rule!")

Those illegal defense rules can be problematic, too, particularly, "no pressing if you're up by 10 or more points." You'll just have to keep your eye on the scoreboard at times. Also, I make it clear in pre-game that, if you commit a foul during an illegal defense, the foul still stands. (Some have argued that there should have been a whistle prior to the foul.)

You think it's bad in basketball, try working youth football where certain positions aren't allowed to rush the passer and only certain players (weight restrictions) can handle the ball. What a mess. More arguments about this made up crap than about the actual base ruleset we're using.

[dfscott]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules. But in the end, the differences are mostly insignificant. NFHS rules on technical fouls are, IMO, much simpler.

In retrospect, I think I will look at those. Other than my head ref's familiarity with the rules, I mainly went with NCAA rules since they are freely available for download and when I went to nhfs.org, it said I had to be a member of a high school sports association to download the NFHS rules. Is anyone aware of any other place to get them?

Originally Posted by SamIAm

Mr. dfscott,

Are you using/running an Upward Basketball league?

Actually, it's not. It's a completely independent neighborhood league sponsored by our local church. We had no basketball programs in the vicinity and tons of kids in 4th or 5th grade that didn't even know how to dribble. (For someone like me that grew up where *everyone* had a hoop in their backyard, it was inconceivable). We started with very basic rules, even for the older kids, for this reason.

We started it last year with about 100 kids and it grew to over 250 this year and we had to turn people away. We were overwhelmed with the positive response -- so much that my wife quit her corporate job to be the full time Recreation Director of the church primarily to run this league.

Originally Posted by grunewar

In the younger leagues we sometimes have to blow the whistle to stop the play and remind the players about the rule (in the heat of battle and all). Thankfully, the coaches are pretty good about it.

We do that as well for our younger leagues (K & 1st grade). We don't impose any penalties for dribbling violations or fouls -- we just stop play, tell them what they did wrong, and then continue without forcing a turnover.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Those illegal defense rules can be problematic, too, particularly, "no pressing if you're up by 10 or more points." You'll just have to keep your eye on the scoreboard at times. Also, I make it clear in pre-game that, if you commit a foul during an illegal defense, the foul still stands. (Some have argued that there should have been a whistle prior to the foul.)

Indeed. We used to say that only the trailing team could press, but it became a problem in a few see-saw battles, so we just changed it so everyone could.

The main reason it's in place is because there is no 10-second rule, so the leading team could simply hold the ball in the backcourt to run out the clock.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by dfscott

Thanks for the rapid replies!

To clarify on #1 (based on what I saw from the scorers table): A2 has possession, B1 slaps the ball and they both begin to scramble for control of the ball. During the tussle, whistle blows, then B1 grabs ball.

Given that, it sounds like A's ball, right?

The sad thing is the coach of B is also our head official (I don't think we're going to allow refs to coach next year). As much as he hates people arguing with his calls, he complains more than any of them!

Originally Posted by dfscott

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.

Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

I'm guessing that the illegal defense occurs when playing defense in A's back court. Slapping the ball away sure sounds like defense to me. Even if B doesn't obtain possession, team A now has less time to avoid a 10-second violation. Blow the whistle, voice the defensive violation, and assess the penalty. If you don't yet have a penalty for this, you can consider to use what we use in my province: Team A gets a front court throw-in at the foul line extended.

If you don't allow back court defense, it sounds to me that A basically gets a free pass to get the ball to their front court (save a traveling or 10-second violation, etc). Even if there is still no in-bounds possession by A, B still cannot intervene. So call the violation.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I'm guessing that the illegal defense occurs when playing defense in A's back court. Slapping the ball away sure sounds like defense to me. Even if B doesn't obtain possession, team A now has less time to avoid a 10-second violation. Blow the whistle, voice the defensive violation, and assess the penalty. If you don't yet have a penalty for this, you can consider to use what we use in my province: Team A gets a front court throw-in at the foul line extended.

If you don't allow back court defense, it sounds to me that A basically gets a free pass to get the ball to their front court (save a traveling or 10-second violation, etc). Even if there is still no in-bounds possession by A, B still cannot intervene. So call the violation.

The play in question happened at under 2 minutes -- in the OP it was communicated that this was legal at that time and it was, in fact, an IW.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The play in question happened at under 2 minutes -- in the OP it was communicated that this was legal at that time and it was, in fact, an IW.

Agreed, the timing of the whistle is what matters on an IW, not the timing of the phantom infraction you almost called.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The play in question happened at under 2 minutes -- in the OP it was communicated that this was legal at that time and it was, in fact, an IW.

Gotcha. Went back to re-read the preface paragraph. And I starting thinking about my provincial rule on this sage age group. Sorry, OP.

[SamIAm]

Mr. dfscott,

Are you using/running an Upward Basketball league?

[Adam]

I'm not aware of a free place to download the rules. You have a couple of options. Spend about $7 on a book, or contact a local high school official to see if they have any extra copies. IMO, the rules are more suited to your kids' age group.

No 10 second rule? Why not? Even if you want to make it 15 seconds, I would still think it's worth keeping the rule.

[dfscott]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not aware of a free place to download the rules. You have a couple of options. Spend about $7 on a book, or contact a local high school official to see if they have any extra copies. IMO, the rules are more suited to your kids' age group.

I'm fine paying for it, I just didn't see where to do that? When I tried to access online publications, it keeps saying:

ACCESS DENIED. YOU MUST BE LOGGED IN AND BE A MEMBER OF AN NFHS PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION OR STATE STAFF MEMBER.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No 10 second rule? Why not? Even if you want to make it 15 seconds, I would still think it's worth keeping the rule.

It's a long story, but generally, my wife was trying to keep the rules as simple as possible. She felt like it added an unnecessary complication and didn't have any faith in our referees enforcing it. We had to beg and plead to get her to agree to 5-second inbound and 5-second closely guarded.

To be honest, without any formal training for our refs, I can kind of see her point. Next year will be different (I'm on a mission!)

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by dfscott

She felt like it added an unnecessary complication and didn't have any faith in our referees enforcing it. We had to beg and plead to get her to agree to 5-second inbound and 5-second closely guarded.

The ten-second violation isn't exactly excessive elbow swinging. This is a well-known rule.

For what it's worth, even in the games I work with the no-press rule, we still do a ten count in the backcourt. I can't remember ever getting to ten in those games, but we still count.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dfscott

I'm fine paying for it, I just didn't see where to do that? When I tried to access online publications, it keeps saying:

ACCESS DENIED. YOU MUST BE LOGGED IN AND BE A MEMBER OF AN NFHS PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION OR STATE STAFF MEMBER.

You could try the "order online" link on their website. It's on the top right area of their homepage.

IAABO Home Page is another option, go to their merchandise/price lists section.

Originally Posted by dfscott

It's a long story, but generally, my wife was trying to keep the rules as simple as possible. She felt like it added an unnecessary complication and didn't have any faith in our referees enforcing it. We had to beg and plead to get her to agree to 5-second inbound and 5-second closely guarded.

To be honest, without any formal training for our refs, I can kind of see her point. Next year will be different (I'm on a mission!)

Honestly, you've got bigger problems if you don't trust your refs to enforce 10 second rules.

[SamIAm]

You should at least look at Upward basketball (Upward.org). Upward provideds both a coach training DVD and a basic officiating DVD. The coaches books provide a pre-planned practices and drills for the coach who needs that kind of guidance. Also included is a "How to setup a league" guide.

Maybe it is not for you, but I recommend you at least give it a look.