Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735478)

During our recent rec league basketball finals, we had 3 crazy situations, all within the last 2 minutes of the game. I dug around on the internet looking for answers to these, but I couldn't find anything definitive (only armchair referee opinions). You guys were able to help me last time, so I'm hoping you can bail me out again!

These are 4th-6th graders, but the rules are loosely based on NCAA rules (our head official knows those rules but isn't as familiar with NFHS rules). One key difference is that we do not allow backcourt defense until there are 2 minutes left in the game. I want to get some opinions on these calls (not to protest, just to learn for next year - my wife is the league director).

1) With 1:50 left, A1 has inbounded the ball to A2 after B's score. B1 attempts to steal the ball from A2 as soon as it is inbounded, and the official blows the whistle just as B1 gains possession and signals illegal backcourt defense. The official then realizes the clock had ticked below 2 minutes so the backcourt defense is legal. She reverses her call, but gives the ball back to A to inbound, while the B coach argues that B should retain possession.

2) With ~30 seconds left, A1 is dribbling from center court towards the corner with B1 agressively defending. A1 swings wide and the official on that side can't get out of the way quickly enough. A1 runs into the referee, falls, and loses the ball out of bounds. Referee rules that since it was his fault, A get the ball out of bounds. B argues that the player lost the ball out of bounds and it's the player's job to avoid the referees.

3) A1 passes to A2 just inside the frontcourt with about 4 seconds left in the game. A2 then drops to the floor face down in the fetal position, covering the ball, letting the clock run out. Coach B argues that falling to the floor with possession should be an automatic travel. Coach A claims that even though A3's knees and arms were on the ground, his toes were still contacting the ground so he didn't move his pivot foot, thus no travel.

And it's not really a rules question, but I'll ask here anyway: what's the best way to get your refs trained? Sitting down and reading the rule book doesn't really prepare you for real game situations (not to mention, I could never get them to do it). I'm sure there are videos but I don't know which ones are good. Plus this is a church rec league, so I can't spend much money. However, I really think we need a bit more instruction than "put this striped shirt on and blow this whistle when you see something bad." It really helps to combat the boo-birds when your officials act like that know what they're doing.

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735483)

Thanks for the rapid replies!

To clarify on #1 (based on what I saw from the scorers table): A2 has possession, B1 slaps the ball and they both begin to scramble for control of the ball. During the tussle, whistle blows, then B1 grabs ball.

Given that, it sounds like A's ball, right?

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735483)

The sad thing is the coach of B is also our head official (I don't think we're going to allow refs to coach next year). As much as he hates people arguing with his calls, he complains more than any of them!

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735478)

During our recent rec league basketball finals, we had 3 crazy situations, all within the last 2 minutes of the game. I dug around on the internet looking for answers to these, but I couldn't find anything definitive (only armchair referee opinions). You guys were able to help me last time, so I'm hoping you can bail me out again!

These are 4th-6th graders, but the rules are loosely based on NCAA rules (our head official knows those rules but isn't as familiar with NFHS rules). One key difference is that we do not allow back court defense until there are 2 minutes left in the game. I want to get some opinions on these calls (not to protest, just to learn for next year - my wife is the league director).

1) With 1:50 left, A1 has in-bounded the ball to A2 after B's score. B1 attempts to steal the ball from A2 as soon as it is in-bounded, and the official blows the whistle just as B1 gains possession and signals illegal backcourt defense. The official then realizes the clock had ticked below 2 minutes so the back court defense is legal. She reverses her call, but gives the ball back to A to inbound, while the B coach argues that B should retain possession.

2) With ~30 seconds left, A1 is dribbling from center court towards the corner with B1 aggressively defending. A1 swings wide and the official on that side can't get out of the way quickly enough. A1 runs into the referee, falls, and loses the ball out of bounds. Referee rules that since it was his fault, A get the ball out of bounds. B argues that the player lost the ball out of bounds and it's the player's job to avoid the referees.

3) A1 passes to A2 just inside the front court with about 4 seconds left in the game. A2 then drops to the floor face down in the fetal position, covering the ball, letting the clock run out. Coach B argues that falling to the floor with possession should be an automatic travel. Coach A claims that even though A2's knees and arms were on the ground, his toes were still contacting the ground so he didn't move his pivot foot, thus no travel.

And it's not really a rules question, but I'll ask here anyway: what's the best way to get your refs trained? Sitting down and reading the rule book doesn't really prepare you for real game situations (not to mention, I could never get them to do it). I'm sure there are videos but I don't know which ones are good. Plus this is a church rec league, so I can't spend much money. However, I really think we need a bit more instruction than "put this striped shirt on and blow this whistle when you see something bad." It really helps to combat the boo-birds when your officials act like that know what they're doing.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735493)

so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735493)

Fed = travel. NCAA = ? ...... "Pivot toes" = LMAO

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735493)

1) This is not a NCAA or NFHS rule, so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735493)

Edit: For the purposes of block/charge and LGP, etc, the FIBA rule is the same as the Fed rule (AFAICT). Having said that, these free FIBA videos are priceless. FIBA Guidelines for Officials: Charging / Blocking on Vimeo

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735500)

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.



Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735483)

Thanks for the rapid replies!

To clarify on #1 (based on what I saw from the scorers table): A2 has possession, B1 slaps the ball and they both begin to scramble for control of the ball. During the tussle, whistle blows, then B1 grabs ball.

Given that, it sounds like A's ball, right?

The sad thing is the coach of B is also our head official (I don't think we're going to allow refs to coach next year). As much as he hates people arguing with his calls, he complains more than any of them!

Originally Posted by dfscott (Post 735500)

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.

Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 735508)

I'm guessing that the illegal defense occurs when playing defense in A's back court. Slapping the ball away sure sounds like defense to me. Even if B doesn't obtain possession, team A now has less time to avoid a 10-second violation. Blow the whistle, voice the defensive violation, and assess the penalty. If you don't yet have a penalty for this, you can consider to use what we use in my province: Team A gets a front court throw-in at the foul line extended.

If you don't allow back court defense, it sounds to me that A basically gets a free pass to get the ball to their front court (save a traveling or 10-second violation, etc). Even if there is still no in-bounds possession by A, B still cannot intervene. So call the violation.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 735502)

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules. But in the end, the differences are mostly insignificant. NFHS rules on technical fouls are, IMO, much simpler.

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 735510)

The play in question happened at under 2 minutes -- in the OP it was communicated that this was legal at that time and it was, in fact, an IW.