Showboat dunk - Page 3

just another ref · #31 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 22, 2002, 01:21am

The question I have is when the player throws the ball off the board to himself, then what is it? It is not a dribble. It is not a pass. If the whole thing is obviously done deliberately, it is not a try for field goal.
So, what is it that you can throw, run and catch, dribble again, do whatever you want?

Love2ref4Ever · #32 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 22, 2002, 09:32am

Hey,
Do I detect some anger coming from Mr. Rogers neighborhood?
Can anyone tell me if I missed something here in Chuck's original post? I could have swore that there was no mention of this paticular play taking place in a High School,College, or NBA game. So I was just sharing my expierence with this kind of play, and not knocking any official who feels that this play should be called depending on the rule book definition, If there was a traveling violation. Now, let me touch on this tournament that I mentioned in my previous reply. The Entertainers Basketball Classic is a summer league that is sanctioned by the NCAA, and the NBA. And yes, this league draws players from the NCAA and NBA on a regular bassis. And the type of play that Chuck is describing in this post is common in this league. Do we call traveling on this play in this league or any other High School, College, or NBA game? I have yet to see anyone make this call, but maybe after this post someone will see it and share it with us. And as far as the officials who work this league,there are some pretty good D1, D2, and D3 college officials on staff. And as far as myself is concerned, I don't think our officiating skills are watered down! In fact this league has helped me in some areas of officiating. Such as handling coaches, players, and the most important for me was the crowd. This park is packed and you get called everything but the "child of god" out there. This league has helped me relax on the court, and referee big! Is this league for every official? NO, then don't knock, it until you try it. And as far as attacking me for just sharing my expierence, it's cool. This league also helped me develope a tuff skin. So the next time you get upset because of the word "entertainment," you may want to remeber that basketball is a game! And we as officials must learn how to adapt to all types of levels of basketball games. And, the ones that learn how to adapt, usually get the big games. So as the kids would say here in Harlem, New York. Don't hate the players, hate the game!

JRutledge · #33 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 22, 2002, 09:49am

Casebook 4.4.5 SITUATION clearly states that throwing the ball up against the backboard is considered a dribble. So if the player has already dribbled, this is double dribble if the dribble had ended by a player picking the ball up and throwing it against the backboard. It is only legal if not dribble has started. But usually this is not the case.

Peace

ChuckElias · #34 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 22, 2002, 09:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Casebook 4.4.5 SITUATION

Jeff, I'm sure others will point this out, too, but the case you mention occurs in A's backcourt. The ball is thrown off the opponent's backboard. My case (and case 4.15.4c) concerns throwing the ball off your own backboard. And 4.15.4c is pretty clear that you can dribble, hold the ball, throw it off your own backboard, recover and dribble again. It's a weird ruling, but that's the ruling.

Chuck

JRutledge · #35 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 22, 2002, 10:10am

I stand corrected. This is only deals with the opponents backboard. But this rule seems inconsistent to me. But I do remember in an NCAA Final game, back in 1991 I believe. UNLV and Duke were playing and one of the UNLV players threw the ball off the backboard and dunked. I believe a official called double dribble on the UNLV player. This was the year UNLV blew out Duke to win the National Championship. The following year Duke one in that big upset when UNLV was undefeated the next year.

Peace

bob jenkins · #36 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 23, 2002, 09:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
I stand corrected. This is only deals with the opponents backboard. But this rule seems inconsistent to me. But I do remember in an NCAA Final game, back in 1991 I believe. UNLV and Duke were playing and one of the UNLV players threw the ball off the backboard and dunked. I believe a official called double dribble on the UNLV player. This was the year UNLV blew out Duke to win the National Championship. The following year Duke one in that big upset when UNLV was undefeated the next year.

Peace

I don't know what the rule was in 1991, but a quick perusal of the current (and past several) NCAA rules books (hint: read the ARs in Rule 4) will reveal that the rule is the same in NCAA and FED -- throwing the ball off the opponents board is a dribble; throwing it off your own board is "nothing".

ewiar · #37 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 04, 2002, 04:56pm

Believe it or not this play actually happened in an NBA regular season game. Tracy McGrady tossed himself an alley-oop off the backboard and dunked it. No call.

[Edited by ewiar on Dec 4th, 2002 at 06:08 PM]

DownTownTonyBrown · #38 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 04, 2002, 05:48pm

These kind of rule inconsistencies surely are not beneficial to the game (are they????) and they are obviously contrary to our own consistency enforcing the rules.

Are there others goofies in the basketball rules that I should be aware of?

It's okay to double dribble on Tuesdays before noon. Lefthanded players must use their left foot for pivot.... unless they are using a Wilson ball then either foot is okay. Unless...

Personally, I can enforce it... and previous to this discussion, I would have called the play a double dribble... so you have educated me. But it seems goofier than an egg shaped basketball... at the end of your dribble you can pass to yourself, if you use your own backboard, but you cannot do it on the defense's backboard..... RIGHT !

Point me in the direction of other oddities I need to learn. Thanks, Tony

mlcowan · #39 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 19, 2003, 03:47pm

First time poster... Interesting thread...

But, I don't see why this concept seems so strange to some? If you bounce the ball off the rim or backboard of you own basket, it's a shot. Doesn't matter what your intent was, whether it was an errant pass attmept to another player, a shot attempt, or intended as a self-pass, you can get it like a rebound (and dribble again)...

A player cannot take a shot at the opposing players basket... There was just a case of this the other night in the NBA where a player was going for a triple-double and needed one rebound. He took the ball in the backcourt and bounced it off the other teams rim, then got his tenth 'rebound'. The problem is that this was really a dribble, not a shot, so he didn't get credit for the rebound and didn't get his triple double. Actually, now I know he should have been called for a double-dribble :-), but the NBA refs didn't call it...

Another really interesting rule that gets into the interpretation of the act of shooting (I was investigating this rule and is how I ended up here) is the rule where a player can LEGALLY do a self-pass... If a player takes a legitimate shot at the basket (obvious room for interpretation here), then he can catch his own shot EVEN IF IT DOESN'T HIT THE RIM OR BACKBOARD!! This rule surprises me, and I would love to know how it is stated in the rule books... This rule seems way more outlandish then a player using the backboard for a self-pass...

- Matt Cowan

ewiar · #40 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 19, 2003, 03:56pm

A shot attempt that misses everything is not a travel because in the rule book it states that player control ends with a try which is defined as an attempt to score. Once you've lost player control catching your own shot is simply gaining player control for a new time.

ChuckElias · #41 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 19, 2003, 03:57pm

Hi Matt, welcome to the board. You really had to do some digging to find this thread from four months ago!

Quote:

Originally posted by mlcowan
If you bounce the ball off the rim or backboard of you own basket, it's a shot. Doesn't matter what your intent was

According to the rules, it does matter in most cases. A "try" (or a shot) is an attempt to put the ball in the basket. In the case we're talking about, the player is clearly NOT trying to score. He's throwing the ball off the backboard in order to catch it again.

If you're fouled during a try, you get to shoot FTs. But in the case we're talking about, if the player had been fouled, he would not be awarded FTs b/c he wasn't shooting. So there is a difference between a shot or try and just hitting the backboard.

As to your other question, the reason the player can retrieve his own airball is that once the try is attempted, by rule there is no longer any player or team control. Since there's no team control, any player is free to secure control, including the shooter.

Hope that helps.

Chuck

TriggerMN · #42 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 19, 2003, 09:33pm

Whoa whoa whoa...don't EVER assume that since something wasn't called in an NBA game that it isn't against the rules...

mick · #43 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 19, 2003, 10:32pm

Is there a maximum number of times allowed that an offensive player may take a ball off his own backboard and put it back up without hitting the rim? - No
Is there judgement required? - No

It's legal. It's showtime. It's fun. Even the losers will talk about how great it was ... eventually.
mick

JeffTheRef · #44 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 23, 2003, 01:00am

Chuck:

I have given this one some thought . . . not that that's worth diddley, we know that . . . and I think that what you have to say about this situation is that, wink, wink, even though we know it wasn't a shot, it was. This is a little part of the game that isn't really quantifiable or qualifiable.

In the simple case, nobody does this if there's anyone within 10 feet. So, in effect, the guy shoots, he misses, he puts it back. If he lands before he catches the ball, fine. He's just wasting time, so this better work out, or, hopefully, he's going to have one mad coach to deal with.