Showboat dunk

[F C E]

If you read in the case book under 4.15.4c it states that A1 may throw the ball off their backboard and rebound it and dribble. Lets add to this - if A1 has stopped his dribble and throws a pass to A2 who moves just as the pass is thrown, A1 is able to retreive the pass with out any penalty, but may not dribble the ball.

[Marty Rogers]

EVERYONE:
PLEASE read casebook plays 4.15.4 Situation C.
There is nothing about "judging" if the released ball is a pass or a try. It doesn't matter. Yes, the player MAY dribble again. It says so, right there in the NFHS casebook. It specifically states that this does NOT constitute part of a dribble. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter what any of us think, or how it "looks" to us, or if we agree with the rule and/or it's reasoning. It is our job as refs to enforce the rules as written. I honestly don't see how there is any debate about this issue if the casebook example is read (and understood).

[BktBallRef]

I agree with Marty. Those of you who say this is traveling are falling into the age old problem that we have with coach. They see something, they don't like it, so it's obviously illegal. If it's legal to throw the ball off your own backboard, catch it and dribble it, why can't you shoot it or dunk it. You're calling this a travel because you don't like the way it looks.

That's wrong. There's nothing illegal about this play.

[RookieDude]

It is our job as refs to enforce the rules as written.

__________________________________________________ __________

Marty...do you call a backcourt violation when the ball is being passed from A1, in backcourt, to A2 in frontcourt and the ball is still in the air past your 10 count?
How bout you BBRef?

Just wondering...

RD
(A little "carry-over" from another thread)

[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 20th, 2002 at 06:27 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by RookieDude
It is our job as refs to enforce the rules as written.

__________________________________________________ __________

Marty...do you call a backcourt violation when the ball is being passed from A1, in backcourt, to A2 in frontcourt and the ball is still in the air past your 10 count?
How bout you BBRef?

Just wondering...

RD
(A little "carry-over" from another thread)

No RD, I don't call everything as it is written. I don't think anyone calls everything the way the book is written. There are accepted calls and there are technically unacceptable calls. Call what's not acceptable in your area and you'll find yourself sitting at home. You have to be consistent with what other officials in your area are calling.

If the count was closest enough to 10 that he had just released the ball when I got to 10, I would call it. If I'm counting "...9...10" after he has released the pass, no, I'm not calling it because that's what's consistent with other officials in my area.

Regarding the play in this thread, the exact opposite is true. This isn't about calling the rule as it's written. This is about making something up to call because it looks funny. That's not supported by rule and it's bad.

[Marty Rogers]

Originally posted by RookieDude
It is our job as refs to enforce the rules as written.

__________________________________________________ __________

Marty...do you call a backcourt violation when the ball is being passed from A1, in backcourt, to A2 in frontcourt and the ball is still in the air past your 10 count?

To answer your question: Yes, I do call this violation. Invision a very close (or reasonably close) game, not much time left, and one team is pressing full court, trying to cause a turnover. My count gets to 8, 9,...ball is released...ball is in the air... count reaches 10. Tweet.
Sorry, I am not going to take that turnover away from the team performing great defense.

However, I do use common sense (which is probably what you are trying to figure out). If the score is quite lopsided, my count would likely be a little "slower." To me, this is different than the original question of this post. I would allow the hitting of player's own backboard (and catch, shoot, dribble) regardless other game circumstances (score, time left, etc). That action is one I have no "control" over, unless I don't mind blowing the call (as in being wrong).

[Love2ref4Ever]

Chuck,
I guess depending on where you live, and what types of leagues you work, this play may seem crazy. There are a few leagues here in New York City where you may see this move often. I personally love it when I am on a game, and I get to watch a player make a dunk like that. I would never call traveling on this paticular play. In fact, I have never seen any official call traveling on this move.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
In fact, I have never seen any official call traveling on this move.

Me either, Butch. But I was trying to get to the rules-basis for the legality or illegality of the move. I don't want to let it slide just b/c it looks "cool".

Haven't seen you post much, lately. Glad to have you back

Chuck

[Love2ref4Ever]

Hey Chuck,
I see your point, and I do feel like a "new jack' after not visiting Officiating.com for a while. I miss you guys alot, but I have been spending alot of my time trying to keep my website officiating group alive. Maybe you and some of the other guys can stop by and say hello. The name of the group is called Basketball Officials United, and the address is:Bsktblloffcl/groups.aol.com

[Ref in PA]

By rule, there is nothing wrong with the original play. The rules allow it. If anyone calls this a violation, they are making up their own rules. By definition the ball bouncing off your own backboard is a rebound - even if you deem the carom not a try. The player may begin a new dribble at that point. It is not a pass to self because it hit the player's backboard. Again, those who would call a violation are making up their own rules.

I see this differently than not calling a 3, 5, or 10 second violation. There the ref is choosing not to enforce an existing rule. But to call a violation on a legal play is making up a rule that just isn't there.

[bard]

Ref,

I don't disagree at all that this play is legal, based upon the case study. But as I stated in another thread, I think the reasoning is bad. The definition of a try says nothing regarding the ball contacting the backboard equalling an attempt at a score.

I won't whistle it, but I don't think the rule is correct.

My 2-cents worth, and my thanks to F C E and Marty for pointing out the relevant Case sit.

[Love2ref4Ever]

As an official sometimes we need to remember that the game is entertainment for the fans. It's not always about calling everything, but the good officials know when to pass on stuff. There is a summer league here in Harlem, New York called The Entertainers Basketball Classic. This tournament is played in the world famous Rucker Park. On a daily bassis you will see dunks like this and some other crazy plays, but if you want to last in this league you will more than likely pass on this paticular play, and some others similar. Trust me, it works for me in this league!Pick your spots carefully when making some calls, because the call you pass on may be the on that helps you get noticed by the right people.

[Marty Rogers]

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
As an official sometimes we need to remember that the game is entertainment for the fans. It's not always about calling everything, but the good officials know when to pass on stuff. There is a summer league here in Harlem, New York called The Entertainers Basketball Classic. This tournament is played in the world famous Rucker Park. On a daily bassis you will see dunks like this and some other crazy plays, but if you want to last in this league you will more than likely pass on this paticular play, and some others similar. Trust me, it works for me in this league!Pick your spots carefully when making some calls, because the call you pass on may be the on that helps you get noticed by the right people.

Excuse me, but reffing high school basketball is NOT entertainment for the fans. This is NOT the NBA (which is strictly entertainment). I do not want to be part of the tournament you are describing simply becuase it waters down my (and all officials') credibility. The name of the tournament says it all, and that is OK, if you enjoy it. But to compare it to high school, or college, where we strive to referee a fair game for the players, by the rules, is absurd. If the call I stick to, by rule, doesn't get me where I want to go, then so be it. But, at least I will be able to look at myself in the mirror the next day, as a referee, not an entertainer.

Sorry about the rant. This ticked me off.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Marty Rogers

Excuse me, but reffing high school basketball is NOT entertainment for the fans. This is NOT the NBA (which is strictly entertainment). I do not want to be part of the tournament you are describing simply becuase it waters down my (and all officials') credibility. The name of the tournament says it all, and that is OK, if you enjoy it. But to compare it to high school, or college, where we strive to referee a fair game for the players, by the rules, is absurd. If the call I stick to, by rule, doesn't get me where I want to go, then so be it. But, at least I will be able to look at myself in the mirror the next day, as a referee, not an entertainer.

Sorry about the rant. This ticked me off.

Calm down man. Aint no biggie.

[Marty Rogers]

Ok, OK you're right. I'll go have an adult beverage, then hit the hay. It's that "entertainment" thing that got to me. I put too much time and energy into my officiating for it to be considered entertainment (for me or anyone else). My apologies if I overreacted.