Calling All Table Officials

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

What are you talking about?! You implied there was a rules difference in the duties of the timer in NFHS and NCAA.

NCAA:

Section 10. Duties of Timer
The official timer shall:
Art. 1. Be provided with a game clock to be used for timing periods and
intermissions and a digital stopwatch. The game clock & digital stopwatch
shall be placed so that they may be seen by both the timer & the shot-clock operator.
Art. 2. Operate the game clock.
Art. 3. Note and notify the referee more than three minutes before each half is to start.
Art. 4. Signal the scorers three minutes before starting time.
Art. 5. Record playing time & time of stoppages.
Art. 6. Notify an official when the timer has information pertaining to a timing mistake.
Art. 7. Start the game clock as prescribed in Rule 5-9.
Art. 8. Start the digital stopwatch for a charged timeout, to replace a disqualified player, (women) to remedy a lost, irritated or displaced contact lens, & signal the referee when it is time to resume play.
Art. 9. Sound a warning horn 15 seconds before the expiration of the 20-second time limit to replace a disqualified or injured player. The signal also shall be sounded at the end of the 20 seconds to replace a disqualified or injured player.
Art. 10. Sound a warning horn 15 seconds before the expiration of an intermission or charged timeout. A second signal shall be given at the expiration of an intermission or a charged timeout. Play shall be resumed immediately upon the sounding of the second signal.
Art. 11. Stop the game clock as prescribed in Rule 5-10.
Art. 12. Stop the game clock after a successful field goal with 59.9 seconds or less remaining in the game or any extra period.
Art. 13. Use the game-clock horn when the ball has become dead & a correctable error situation has been brought to the scorer’s attention by a
coach.
Art. 14. Indicate with the red light or LED lights the expiration of playing time in each half or extra period. This signal shall terminate player activity. When a red light is not present, the indicator that shall terminate players’ activity shall be the sounding of the game-clock horn.
Art. 15. Enter the playing court or use other means to immediately notify the referee when the timers’ red light signal or LED lights fail to operate or be
seen or when a game-clock horn fails to sound or is inaudible. When, in the meantime, a goal has been made or a foul has occurred, the referee shall consult the timers.
a. When the timers agree that time expired before a try for field goal was in flight, the goal shall not count.
b. When the timers agree that the period ended before a foul occurred as in Rule 5-7.3.c, the foul shall be disregarded unless it was a flagrant technical foul or (men) a contact dead ball technical foul.
c. When the timers disagree about the expiration of time before a successful try for field goal or foul, the goal shall count or the foul shall be penalized unless the referee has knowledge that alters such a ruling.

NFHS:

SECTION 12 TIMER’S DUTIES
The timer shall:
ART. 1 . . . Note when each half is to start and shall notify the referee more than three minutes before this time so the referee may notify the teams, or cause them to be notified, at least three minutes before the half is to start.
ART. 2 . . . Signal the scorer three minutes before starting time.
ART. 3 . . . Be provided with a clock to be used for timing quarters, extra periods and intermissions, and a stopwatch for timing time-outs. The clock shall be operated by the official timer. The clock and a stopwatch shall be placed so that they may be seen by the timer. The clock shall be started or stopped as prescribed in Rule 5-8 and 5-9.
ART. 4 . . . Sound a warning signal 15 seconds before the expiration of an intermission or a 60-second charged time-out and at 15 seconds of a 30-second time-out, immediately after which the players shall prepare to be ready to resume play, and signal again at the end of the intermission or time-out.
ART. 5 . . . Sound a warning signal 15 seconds before the expiration of the 20 seconds (maximum) permitted for replacing a disqualified or injured player, or for a player directed to leave the game.
NOTE: The official shall signal the timer to begin the 20-second interval for replacing an injured player after the injured player has been removed from the court and the coach has been notified that a replacement is required, except as in 3-3-6.
ART. 6 . . . Stop the clock at the expiration of time for each quarter or extra period, and when an official signals time-out, as in 5-8. For an intermission or a charged time-out, start the stopwatch and signal the referee as outlined in Article 5.
ART. 7 . . . Indicate by signal the expiration of playing time in each quarter or extra period. If a red/LED light is used, the light is the official expiration of playing time.

Article 5 of Timer's Duties in NCAA is a difference as I've never heard of a HS Timer having to record playing time & time of stoppages.

Also, unless misunderstanding the concepts, the timer in NCAA has more authority than a HS Timer does.

Anything else missing??

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chseagle

NCAA and NFHS:

Section 10. Duties of Timer
The official timer shall:
Art. 1.Flick a switch to start and stop the clock
Art. 2. Push some buttons to keep the score
Art. 3. STFU.

Fixed it for ya.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Fixed it for ya.

Sorry but unless on the NCAA Rules Committee or the NFHS Rules Committee, your changes are null & void.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Also, unless misunderstanding the concepts,

Didn't read the whole thread, but in general, I choose this one.

[Adam]

This is why, in the other thread, I stated that I never trust the board. If I see 6 or even 7 on the board, I ask the scorer (not the timer) to verify that we're in the bonus. I do the same thing when I see 10 for the first time. Too many timers jump the gun or get this wrong, I'm not trusting the score board.

To me, it tells me we're getting close, but I generally know that anyway.

[Adam]

You missed the entire point of the question.
Lee quoted the NCAA rule, and you suggested it's different at the high school level for this very issue. It's not. No need to post all the rules differences that are irrelevant to the situation.

Originally Posted by chseagle

I'm meaning high school, not college, so a bit of a difference in rules.

From what I have noticed in NCAA rules, there's only one scorer, compared to 2 in HS.

And maybe I missed it, but there's only one scorer in high school, too. Only one that matters, anyway. Or does rule 11 say differently?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This is why, in the other thread, I stated that I never trust the board. If I see 6 or even 7 on the board, I ask the scorer (not the timer) to verify that we're in the bonus. I do the same thing when I see 10 for the first time. Too many timers jump the gun or get this wrong, I'm not trusting the score board.

To me, it tells me we're getting close, but I generally know that anyway.

Eh, I trust the boards for the most part. The numbers I care about are 6 and 9. I'll take a glance at it before we put the ball back in play -- by then the board has usually been updated and then I'll signal the partner(s).

The number of good scorers who are holding up 1 and 1 or 2 as I'm reporting the 7th or 10th foul (as we used to ALWAYS get), well, I could count them this season on one hand. But they are pretty good about keeping the boards accurate around here.

I put the PA announcer who announces the foul before I report it in the same category, BTW. Annoying.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Come to SoCal and work with me Rich! I will verbally warn on 6 and 9 and signal for 7 and 10.The warning would be something like "Bonus/Double Bonus on the next ________."My signal for one and one is forefingers of each hand together then spread them apart.For double bonus I put the pointer and forefingers of each hand together and wave them back and forth.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You missed the entire point of the question.
Lee quoted the NCAA rule, and you suggested it's different at the high school level for this very issue. It's not. No need to post all the rules differences that are irrelevant to the situation.



And maybe I missed it, but there's only one scorer in high school, too. Only one that matters, anyway. Or does rule 11 say differently?

I'm meaning only one scorebook instead of two scorebooks.

Having two scorebooks at the table, is a checks & balances system.

Several times, in Sub-V games have I gone to both books during halftime & have found some discrepancies in either the score or the foul counts.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This is why, in the other thread, I stated that I never trust the board. If I see 6 or even 7 on the board, I ask the scorer (not the timer) to verify that we're in the bonus. I do the same thing when I see 10 for the first time. Too many timers jump the gun or get this wrong, I'm not trusting the score board.

To me, it tells me we're getting close, but I generally know that anyway.

Snaq, you are forgetting one minor detail in that majority of the time I am timer in Sub-V games where the personnel doing the scorebook really don't have much of a clue about what their duties/responsibilities are. I am in continual communication with the official scorer about the running score & foul counts. However, they do not seem to realize that they need to signal when in bonus/double bonus.

I have been doing what I can to train them properly, however I have no say (and apparently the coaches don't care), & there seems to be always some issues each game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I'm meaning only one scorebook instead of two scorebooks.

Having two scorebooks at the table, is a checks & balances system.

Several times, in Sub-V games have I gone to both books during halftime & have found some discrepancies in either the score or the foul counts.

My point is that, according to the rules, there is only one scorebook at both levels. Whether there's a second person keeping a book doesn't change that fact. You were talking about rule differences; this isn't one of them.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Snaq, you are forgetting....

No, I didn't forget anything. Your situation has no bearing on what I do.

I have more issues in 5 games with the clock than I've had in my career with the scorebook.

[APG]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I'm meaning only one scorebook instead of two scorebooks.

Having two scorebooks at the table, is a checks & balances system.

Several times, in Sub-V games have I gone to both books during halftime & have found some discrepancies in either the score or the foul counts.

Snaq's point is that there's still one official book at both levels. If there's a discrepancy between two books, we always go with the official one unless we have direct knowledge or other mitigating circumstances.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Snaq's point is that there's still one official book at both levels. If there's a discrepancy between two books, we always go with the official one unless we have direct knowledge or other mitigating circumstances.

AKA an incompetent scorer or inattentive scorer.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Snaq's point is that there's still one official book at both levels. If there's a discrepancy between two books, we always go with the official one unless we have direct knowledge or other mitigating circumstances.

Shoot, some of the college games I've done have had 3 books at the table (in-season tournaments between neutral opponents).