Calling all College Officials. Team Control Foul Mechanic.

JRutledge · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 11, 2002, 02:29am

I just did two college games this weekend and had a question about the new mechanic.

What is the proper sequence or the proper order to call a Team Control Foul?

On an block call by and screener, do you have a Foul call signal, followed by the Block signal, then followed by the Team control signal? Or do you just call the foul with the signal and give the Team Control signal? I know the signals are different between the Men's and the Women's sides, but is the order the same in both or are they different?

There was a debate about this at the NCAA meeting I attended, and no one really made it clear in my opinion. What is the proper signal order?

Peace

pizanno · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 11, 2002, 03:33am

by the book:
you may just give the TC mechanic, only...just as the former PC mechanic did not require a fist in the air first. This is hard to do and requires some getting accustomed to doing on a bang-bang play.

practically speaking:
since the new team-control rule (no FTs) will be an educational process for all this year, I think it's helpful to add the block mechanic.

...maybe not correct, by the book, but helps communicate to players, coaches, et. al. that you had an off-ball foul, not an "old PC" foul.

secondyear · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 11, 2002, 07:52am

I've been told the following sequence (for women NCAA)

Foul signal, followed by the punch ("team control"). When reporting to the table report as usual, but use the punch signal. If neccessary, then use another signal to clarify what happened - for example, the block signal for an illegal screen.

That's what I've been told. Hope this helps.

bob jenkins · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 11, 2002, 08:55am

Secondyear is right.

Note that the foul signals are given as signals 16-24. You'll only use one for any call.

There might even be clarification on the NCAA website.

(As always, if a coach asks, you might give a more detailed explanation, or choose to use an "unauthorized" signal to convey more information.)

bigwhistle · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 11, 2002, 09:08am

Here is a link to NCAA officiating bulletins. Marcy Weston has a memo regarding exactly how the women's side wants the call to be made.

http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/baske...ins/index.html

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 11, 2002, 11:38am

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Secondyear is right.

Note that the foul signals are given as signals 16-24. You'll only use one for any call.

There might even be clarification on the NCAA website.

(As always, if a coach asks, you might give a more detailed explanation, or choose to use an "unauthorized" signal to convey more information.)

Well that is not what they said at the NCAA Rules Clinic in Chicago. They went back and forth on what was the proper thing to do. Even some big time veterans of college basketball were debating with Marcy Weston and Barbra Jacobs on what was the proper sequence of signals. I know personally Patty Broddrick and another big time official (probably know her name, but did not put her name and face together) both showed confusion that this new signal was bringing. Because both of these officials that had much more experience than I, it made it clear to everyone in the meeting that there would be confusion with the regular PC foul and the "illegal screen" or "loose ball" fouls that might take place. No one has really given the final answer on this.

Peace

JLK · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 11, 2002, 12:27pm

Rut,

Just tell yourself that there is no more PC in the women's game. Any offensive fouls (as long as there is team control) is now a TC. So if you have an illegal screen, then you would have a TC. So punch and go the other way. When reporting, if a coach wants clarification, then you could give the specific mechanic (block sign for the illegal screen)

Regarding the TC mechanics, I just started working in two conferences (DIII) and one supervisor wanted us to stop the clock first then punch while the other one was ok with us just punching. So it might be up to your individual supervisor.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 11, 2002, 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JLK
Rut,

Just tell yourself that there is no more PC in the women's game. Any offensive fouls (as long as there is team control) is now a TC. So if you have an illegal screen, then you would have a TC. So punch and go the other way. When reporting, if a coach wants clarification, then you could give the specific mechanic (block sign for the illegal screen)

Regarding the TC mechanics, I just started working in two conferences (DIII) and one supervisor wanted us to stop the clock first then punch while the other one was ok with us just punching. So it might be up to your individual supervisor.

This does not just pretain to the Women's game. This rule was changed for the Men's too.

stripes · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 11, 2002, 04:01pm

We were told (men's only) to signal first the foul (block, etc.) and then to place our hand behind our head (PC foul signal) when reporting at the table.

JLK · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 12, 2002, 08:24am

My understanding of the TC mechanics is that is only for the women's game. Men's will still have a PC call using the PC mechanics. Also if there is an offensive foul (say away from the ball), men's will still use the proper mechanic to call the foul (blocking for an illegal screen).

In the women's game, all offensive fouls (as long as there is team control) will be Team Control fouls.

Again, just my understanding of this new mechanic. Please let me know otherwise.

ChuckElias · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 12, 2002, 09:02am

stripes and I are on the same page. I posted about this in an earlier thread. Tom Lopes told us the proper procedure at the spot of the foul is fist up, then secondary signal (block, hold, etc), then PC signal (hand behind head).

JLK, the team control foul applies to both men's and women's ball, but the mechanics used for indicating the foul are different.

Chuck

rockyroad · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 12, 2002, 10:55am

Did a women's scrimmage on Sunday...Conference observer was there - with memo from Weston and Jacobs in hand...the proper mechanic as clarified "from on high" is fist up, then the punch signal...only give any additional signal (block, push, etc) at the table if clarification is needed...the memo came out after all the D-1 meetings, so it should clear up all the questions...don't know about men's, but sounds like Chuck already answered that one...

Dan_ref · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 12, 2002, 11:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Did a women's scrimmage on Sunday...Conference observer was there - with memo from Weston and Jacobs in hand...the proper mechanic as clarified "from on high" is fist up, then the punch signal...only give any additional signal (block, push, etc) at the table if clarification is needed...the memo came out after all the D-1 meetings, so it should clear up all the questions...don't know about men's, but sounds like Chuck already answered that one...

Yeah, I got the same talk as Chuck did from Tom Lopes at a
different meeting. FWIW, I cannot for the life of me
understand why not even this minor point (how to signal TC
fouls) can not be the same for mens & womens.
Unbelievable...

JRutledge · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 12, 2002, 11:19am

Quote:

Originally posted by JLK
My understanding of the TC mechanics is that is only for the women's game. Men's will still have a PC call using the PC mechanics. Also if there is an offensive foul (say away from the ball), men's will still use the proper mechanic to call the foul (blocking for an illegal screen).

In the women's game, all offensive fouls (as long as there is team control) will be Team Control fouls.

Again, just my understanding of this new mechanic. Please let me know otherwise.

You might be getting something confused. The NCAA changed the rule for the NCAA, not just one or the other. The signals are different, but they both have signals designated for Team Control Fouls. I have heard the sequence is the same in both, but the question is what is the proper one.

Peace

ChuckElias · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 12, 2002, 11:22am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
FWIW, I cannot for the life of me understand why not even this minor point (how to signal TC fouls) can not be the same for mens & womens.

In the opinion of a D1 ref I know, it's all about the egos of the people on the Men's Rules Committee. His opinion is that the committee members do not want to admit that they are taking ideas from the pros. So they go out of their way to make it look different from the pros, even though in a large number of cases (although not in all cases), the rule is applied exactly the same way.

Apparently, the members of the women's committee have exactly the opposite opinion. Not only are they NOT trying to differentiate themselves from the pros, but they are intentionally adapting more and more pro interpretations and mechanics. Watch out for away-from-the-play fouls next year??

Chuck