out of bounds rule.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

player saves a ball.. goes out of bounds. comes back in and touches it. in the last 2 weeks we have had this called several ways..

1 game it was a violation
1 game it was not a violation
1 game it was a violation because the player did not touch with both feet.
1 game it was not a violation and the player never came back in and touched the ground before touching the ball.

i looked on several high sites and got various answers from officials. I see it answered differently on sites that have tests..

It is not illegal. This isn't the NFL.

I finally ordered a rule book because so many mistakes are being made by officials in our games.

I understand. I've order several coaching books and manuals, including "Coaching for Dummies, for the same reason.

its clearly a violation under NCAA rules. what is the rule in HS and if its different why do we have 2 sets of rules on a play like this?

No, it's not.

and while i am waiting for the rule book just how do you interpret the 3ft rule on out of bounds playing movement? is it 3 ft circle when handed the ball is it 3 ft either direction?

No, it is not a circle.

The thrower does not decide where his intial spot is.

The official designates the spot.

The spot is 3' wide.

As long as he keeps either foot on/over that spot, he may be able to move several 2-4 feet outside the spot with his second foot, in either direction.

[upprdeck]

so what does this mean>

Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his/her own volition and then
becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court
has committed a violation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

so what does this mean>

Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his/her own volition and then
becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court
has committed a violation.

The part in red is the key. A player whose momentum takes him OOB while saving the ball (or other similar activity) is not restricted by this rule. Basically, it's there for the player who decides to run OOB to get around defenders.

The NFHS (High School) equivalent is 9-3-3:

A player shall not leave the floor for an unauthorized reason

The only difference is in the NFHS, it's a violation as soon as the player steps OOB. In NCAA, it's not a violation until the player becomes the first to touch the ball. But in both rule sets, it's not a violation if the player went OOB due to momentum from a legitimate play.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The only difference is in the NFHS, it's a violation as soon as the player steps OOB.

Right. Still, that's the thing that's always thrown me off about the article upprdeck posted. If you leave the floor for an unauthorized reason anyway, isn't that article moot?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Right. Still, that's the thing that's always thrown me off about the article upprdeck posted. If you leave the floor for an unauthorized reason anyway, isn't that article moot?

What article? He posted the NCAA rule, where it's not a violation to leave the floor for an unauthorized reason. The violation is for, essentially, being the first to touch the ball after returning from leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. (paraphrased)

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Right. Still, that's the thing that's always thrown me off about the article upprdeck posted. If you leave the floor for an unauthorized reason anyway, isn't that article moot?

The article posted is from the NCAA rules, under "Penalties". As Snaqs posted, it is essentially the same play where in NFHS it is a violation immendiately for leaving the court voluntarily, it is only a violation in NCAA if that player is the first to touch or receive a pass after coming back in bounds.

There is also an A.R. (case play) that mentions what the NCAA considers as "voluntarily" leaving the court:

A.R. 168.

A1 deflects a pass near the end line. The ball falls to the floor inbounds but A1, who is off balance, falls outside the end line. A1 returns to the playing court, secures control of the ball, and dribbles.

RULING: Legal. A1 has not left the playing court voluntarily and was not in control of the ball when leaving the playing court. The same should be true when A1 makes a try from under the basket and momentum carries A1 off the playing court. The try is unsuccessful, and A1 comes onto the playing court and regains control of the ball.

(Rule 7-1-1, 4-46-1.a, 9-4-1 and 9-4-2)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

so what does this mean>

Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his/her own volition and then
becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court
has committed a violation.

Usually seen when a player runs OOB along the endline and then returns inbounds to receive a pass.

Call the violation just last Saturday.

[upprdeck]

So I guess the reason for my confusion is that I took saving a ball and going out of bounds to be voluntary and the rulebook is stating it is not. in my mind I have the choice of going out of bounds to save a ball. in this case if the ball and player are in bounds and I have no reason to step out and do then it is a violation?

however it also sounds like if I go out of bounds just to go around defenders who are in my way that it is a violation?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

...
however it also sounds like if I go out of bounds just to go around defenders who are in my way that it is a violation?

Correct. Important word for you to remember here is momentum. Did player go OOB because of momentum?

[APG]

For completeness sake, the NBA's take on the play:

24. Player A1 saves a loose ball from going out-of-bounds by batting the ball back onto the playing court. May Player A1 be the first to touch the ball when he returns onto the court?

Yes. The batting of the ball does not constitute player control, therefore Player A1 may be the first to touch the ball.
RULE 10 - SECTION II - b

252. Team A has just lost control of the ball and it is in the air over the boundary line (never having touched out-of-bounds). Player A1 leaps from the playing court, bats the ball back into play and he then lands out-of bounds. What is the ruling?

This is a legal play by Player A1. The ball is not out-of-bounds until it touches someone or something that is out-of-bounds. On this play, Player A1 may also be the first to touch the ball once he touches inbounds with one foot and is not touching out-of-bounds. If Player A1 threw the ball back inbounds, he is not allowed to be the first player to touch the ball.
RULE 8 - SECTION I
RULE 10 - SECTION XIII - g

[Adam]

Interesting, is this rule saying that if he grabs it and throws it back in, he cannot be the first to touch it?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The thrower does not decide where his intial spot is.

The official designates the spot.

The spot is 3' wide.

As long as he keeps either foot on/over that spot, he may be able to move several 2-4 feet outside the spot with his second foot, in either direction.

Could a player, who has a long stride, have each foot outside the 3-foot spot on opposite sides (maybe 4-5 feet apart)...straddling the entire spot?

And would you call that a violation since neither foot was over the spot? (No, I'm not saying you should, but that is what the rule, taken literally, would lead to).

[BillyMac]

A player inbounding the ball may step on, but not over the line. During a designated spot throwin, the player inbounding the ball must keep one foot on or over the three-foot wide designated spot. An inbounding player is allowed to jump or move one or both feet. A player inbounding the ball may move backward as far as the five-second time limit or space allows. If player moves outside the three-foot wide designated spot it is a violation, not travelling. In gymnasiums with limited space outside the sidelines and endlines, a defensive player may be asked to step back no more than three feet.

If a player's momentum carries him or her off the court, he or she can be the first player to touch the ball after returning inbounds. That player must not have left the court voluntarily and must immediately return inbounds. That player must have something in and nothing out. It is not necessary to have both feet back inbounds. It is a violation for a player to intentionally leave the court for an unauthorized reason.