What's The Correct Call ???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In a word, NO. Realistically, I think this might be a good question if it was something that happened more than once in a career. The fact is, if a player rolls the ball on the floor, it's not gonna gain him an advantage, because somebody else is gonna pick it up.

I want you to get the facts straight. The first time he rolled, after the fumble, it he didn't gain an advantage, and actually put himself at a disadvantage (as you state). The second, and third, time he rolled the ball he intentionally, and deliberately, tapped the ball so that it rolled away from the two defenders. That, in my opinion, is certainly an advantage, however, the question is, is this an advantage that is not intended by a rule?

[just another ref]

Okay, reviewing the situation, here's my opinion. In your play, A1 fumbled the ball. It is now a loose ball on the floor. If B1 reaches the ball first and pushes it away from A1, this is not in any way illegal, nor is it a dribble. If B1 subsequently picks up the ball, he would be free to dribble. A1 should have an equal opportunity to recover the ball by pushing it away from the defense. He just would not have a dribble after he recovered the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Player control is defined as holding or dribbling the ball. The usual criteria for judging player control is whether the ball came to rest in/on a player's hands(s). And that's always a judgment call.

By rule, there is no player control during a fumble/muff. Soooooo....during a fumble/muff we should be looking for 4 things:
1) a foul because of contact giving one player an illegal advantage
2) player control being established
3) somebody with OOB status touching the ball
4) the offensive team touching the ball first in the backcourt if the fumble/muff went frontcourt to backcourt after having beein in team control in the frontcourt and an offensive player touched it last in the frontcourt.

If a foul occurs, call it. If player control is established, go to the appropriate rule for that situation i.e. traveling, illegal second dribble, etc. If the ball goes OOB or a backcourt violation occurs, call those also.

Other than that, quit thinking so damn much!

KISS!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Other than that, quit thinking so damn much!

Maybe I should tell you what I really think of you? Wait a minute? You suggested that I quite thinking so damn much. So I can't tell you. Nevermind.

(Reminds me of the old joke about the coach who asks the official if he can be charged with a technical foul for just thinking something.)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The second, and third, time he rolled the ball he intentionally, and deliberately, tapped the ball so that it rolled away from the two defenders.

Is tapping the ball along the floor in a controlled manner the same as having player control?

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is tapping the ball along the floor in a controlled manner the same as having player control?

Would you call a timeout if one was asked? I'm not and therefore no player control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Would you call a timeout if one was asked?.

Pick a prize from the top shelf.

I've actually been waiting for someone to bring up that question. It's a great question, one that has been used before on the Forum, I believe, most recently, regarding an offensive player tapping a rebound to a teammate in the backcourt.

I find it odd that the NFHS would leave us with a revolving door type definition. If the official would grant a time out under such and such circumstance, then the player has player control. Also in order to grant a live ball timeout, a player on the team in control must have player control. Maybe a definition of "holding a ball" would be helpful?

cat_chasing_tail ÔÚÏß¹Û¿´ - ¿á6ÊÓƵ

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Would you call a timeout if one was asked?

In a "had to be there scenario", yes, I would. So, I guess that means that he had player control. And, I guess that since he moved his pivot foot while having player control (I know that he wasn't dribbling, so he must have then "holding" the ball, no other choice), then he traveled.

Still doesn't feel right. So that means that in the situations where a player taps a rebound in the air like a volleyball for eighty-four feet, or bobbles a ball after catching a pass for eighty-four feet, or plays pinball with a ball on the floor for eighty-four feet, the only way we can rule this illegal is if we would have granted a timeout in those situations?

There has to be a better way. Something is rotten in the state of the NFHS (Apologizes to Billy Shakespeare)

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball.

Once I make a judgment that the player is in control of the ball, then I've got rule support. N'est-ce pas?

Ah, no, you don't. Because once he's neither holding nor dribbling it, there is no player control.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

We've debated whether, or not, an offensive player who "taps" a rebound to a teammate in his backcourt has player control.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is tapping the ball along the floor in a controlled manner the same as having player control?

Ah, no, as player control is defined in the rule book. Controlled manner is something you've just made up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So that means that in the situations where a player taps a rebound in the air like a volleyball for eighty-four feet, or bobbles a ball after catching a pass for eighty-four feet, or plays pinball with a ball on the floor for eighty-four feet, the only way we can rule this illegal is if we would have granted a timeout in those situations?

You can't apply rules based on player control like traveling to situations in which there is NO player control. That's what you are still trying to do.

If you legitimately feel that the ball came to rest during an 84-foot tap/bobble/fumble/muff/etc., then apply the applicable rules at that point of the play. But don't rule that the ball came to rest just because the play happens to offend your idea of how the game should be played.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

But don't rule that the ball came to rest just because the play happens to offend your idea of how the game should be played.

Your 100% correct. I did exactly that yesterday in the heat of of the game. I remember thinking to myself before I sounded my whistle, "That can't be legal", instead of the much more correct, "That's illegal". That's why I discussed it with my partner, and brought it to the attention of the esteemed members of the Forum. It was probably a lousy call, and now I want to see if it really was illegal, not to defend my call, but to learn something regarding such plays (rebound tap, muff pass, roll ball) that may occur in the future.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you legitimately feel that the ball came to rest during an 84-foot tap/bobble/fumble/muff/etc., then apply the applicable rules at that point of the play.

I can't imagine any Forum member allowing these plays to go on longer than several feet without sounding their whistle. Can you?

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I can't imagine any Forum member allowing these plays to go on longer than several feet without sounding their whistle. Can you?

Why not? If the defense allows an offensive player to go the length of the court and do that, then that's on them. Nothing illegal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I can't imagine any Forum member allowing these plays to go on longer than several feet without sounding their whistle. Can you?

Billy, I would hope that every forum member would let these plays go on until a violation, foul or the end of a period occurred. There's no reason under the rules to stop play before that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is tapping the ball along the floor in a controlled manner the same as having player control?

Is tapping a rebound in a controlled manner to a teammate or to yourself considered the same as having player control?