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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 20, 2011, 03:14pm
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Another twist

The long pass hits B3 (as in OP) but then also is tipped by A5 and goes in after horn?
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Old Thu Jan 20, 2011, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letemplay View Post
The long pass hits B3 (as in OP) but then also is tipped by A5 and goes in after horn?
...with .02 seconds left? Is chseagle running the clock? (Sorry eagleman...j/k)
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2011, 12:53am
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When did we start doing indoor track where the scoreboard displays hundreths of a second?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude View Post
...with .02 seconds left? Is chseagle running the clock? (Sorry eagleman...j/k)
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2011, 08:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle View Post
When did we start doing indoor track where the scoreboard displays hundreths of a second?
Some clocks do, especially when the clock is stopped.

Besides which, the post was corrected 7 hours before your post.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2011, 08:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
5-2-5
When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and three-tenths (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, a player may not gain control of the ball and try for a field goal. In this situation only a tap could score.

A tap = one tap.

If two players tip it, that's it. I'm not going to score such a basket and all I need is that statement to back my call.
"A" is the indefinite article. It means you are referring to any of a group of like objects. A generic tap. To mean one tap it would have to say "only a single tap may score."

I agree that it's very unlikely that there will be sufficient time for a tipped ball to be tapped. However, unlike a ball that's caught with 0.3 seconds left, you must actually judge whether the tap got off instead of it being dead by rule.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2011, 08:48am
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A suggestion for editorial revision: When play is resumed and the clock shows .3 or less, when any player gains control, the period shall be over.

As written now, consider the following, if you want to split hairs.

A1 throws in to A2, who quickly catches and lobs toward the basket. A3 tips in in, clearly before the buzzer.

I think we would agree that the intent is that it should not, but........
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2011, 10:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
A suggestion for editorial revision: When play is resumed and the clock shows .3 or less, when any player gains control, the period shall be over.

As written now, consider the following, if you want to split hairs.

A1 throws in to A2, who quickly catches and lobs toward the basket. A3 tips in in, clearly before the buzzer.

I think we would agree that the intent is that it should not, but........
I'm not sure how that would really clarify anything that isn't already clear. I don't think anyone is arguing that a catch and shoot (or lob in your example) is not possible with .3 or less. It's the number of taps that is in question that can be possible in .3 or less. I'm not sure it's easily analyzed or possible to say without a doubt what can happen in that amount of time. You kind of just have to hope the clock starts on time and determine if the last tap occurred prior to the horn sounding. That's why we get paid the big bucks...
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2011, 10:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
I'm not sure how that would really clarify anything that isn't already clear. I don't think anyone is arguing that a catch and shoot (or lob in your example) is not possible with .3 or less. It's the number of taps that is in question that can be possible in .3 or less. I'm not sure it's easily analyzed or possible to say without a doubt what can happen in that amount of time. You kind of just have to hope the clock starts on time and determine if the last tap occurred prior to the horn sounding. That's why we get paid the big bucks...
I do not believe it's impossible to catch and shoot in .3 seconds. That's not why the rule was created. It was simply created as a way to judge those last attempts because the margin of error in terms of starting the clock and hearing the horn correctly is greater than the ability to get the catch and shoot off. Therefore, easier to just make a hard and fast rule that officials can rely on.

No reason the Fed couldn't clarify to say that the first touching - regardless of if it's a tip or a tap or a bat or whatever - utilizes the .3 or less time, and any subsequent touching would occur after the horn.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2011, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing that a catch and shoot (or lob in your example) is not possible with .3 or less.
A lot of people might argue that it is possible, but it doesn't matter if it's possible or not, because it is not allowed. A catch, toss, and tap in .3 likely isn't possible, but by rule, as currently written, it is allowed. The proposed revision would simply close this admittedly tiny loophole. The point of this rule is to remove judgment, and the possible complication of whether or not the clock was properly started.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2011, 02:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
I'm not sure how that would really clarify anything that isn't already clear. I don't think anyone is arguing that a catch and shoot (or lob in your example) is not possible with .3 or less. It's the number of taps that is in question that can be possible in .3 or less. I'm not sure it's easily analyzed or possible to say without a doubt what can happen in that amount of time. You kind of just have to hope the clock starts on time and determine if the last tap occurred prior to the horn sounding. That's why we get paid the big bucks...
Actually if I remember correctly, it was determined that a catch and shoot could not be done with LESS than .3. Catch and shoot was possible if .3 was on the clock hence the reason the NBA rule states a catch and shoot is possible with .3 on the clock rather than NFHS which would be illegal.

As far as the editorial clarification, I don't think it's needed. Usually a clarification is needed when there is a misunderstanding about a situation. I don't know an official alive who would allow your "loophole" JAR.
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Old Thu Jan 20, 2011, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letemplay View Post
The long pass hits B3 (as in OP) but then also is tipped by A5 and goes in after horn?
Judgment call. Was A5's tip an attempt to score?
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Old Thu Jan 20, 2011, 03:20pm
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Yes, that was how A drew the play up. Their only chance is a long pass from A1 to A5 for a tip. Wrench in plan is B3 gets a hand on it first, followed by A5's tap. Could we have two touches in .02?
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Old Thu Jan 20, 2011, 03:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letemplay View Post
Yes, that was how A drew the play up. Their only chance is a long pass from A1 to A5 for a tip. Wrench in plan is B3 gets a hand on it first, followed by A5's tap. Could we have two touches in .02?
Guess you didn't read it the first time.

The rule states with .3 or less, a player (meaning one player) can tap the ball and acore. It does not say two players can tap the ball and still score.
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Old Thu Jan 20, 2011, 03:35pm
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So if the defense happened to get his hand on it first, even a glancing touch, then A5 tips it in, we got no basket, ruling a double touch?
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Old Thu Jan 20, 2011, 03:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letemplay View Post
So if the defense happened to get his hand on it first, even a glancing touch, then A5 tips it in, we got no basket, ruling a double touch?
It doesn't matter whether the tap was glancing or not - by rule, with under .3 seconds to play, there is only time for one player to tap the ball.
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