Inboudn play with 2.8 seconds left

[jarecker1]

2.8 seconds, 2 point game, team A leading and inbounding after a made 3 pointer by team B. My partner and I discuss possible scenarios during the time out granted right after the aforementioned made 3 pointer, primarily suggesting to be alert for any grabbing or pulling of team A by team B during the throw in and then perhaps a quick foul after the inbounds pass.
A1 throws the pass to out of bounds A2 parallel to the endline. A2 takes a few steps back toward A1 and passes it to A3, who is on the court. A split second later the horn blows. I am standing in front of the visiting bench (team B) who is going nuts yelling, "the clock started early, the clock started early". The timer swears he started the clock on my partners chop in, which happened when A1 passed to A2 (who, if you remember was still out of bounds). What to do, what to do?
I'll let you all noodle this one and I'll tell you what we did?
Other things to consider...
How many passes can team A throw to each other out of bounds? Can A2 run the endline after receiving the initial throw in pass from A1?

[blindzebra]

Not this one again.

It's an official's error, which has no rules support to correct the mistake.

So it's either SOL, game over, or you envoke 2-3 and give a do over.

[jarecker1]

You mean you've already reviewed this one? That's what I get for just joining and I could've gone to bed 20 minutes ago and not spent time writing this up?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

We discussed a play similar to this play earlier this year. And the thread was quite lengthy of my memory serves me correct. Hopefully Brad can resurrect it for the Forum.

But to make a long story short: It does not matter whether the Trail correctly or incorrectly signaled game clock to start, the game clock does not start until the throw-in touches a player on the court. In the play we are discussing in this thread, Team A correctly inbounded the ball and the game clock was incorrectly started, in this case too soon. The correct solution to the problem is to reset the clock to 2.8 seconds because that is the only definite knowledge that the officials have with respect to the amount of time left on the game clock. Since Team A had inbounded the ball properly after Team B’s successful field goal attempt, Team A receives the ball for a designated spot throw-in closest to the spot of where the ball was when play was stopped when the timing error was discovered. NFHS R2-S3 and NCAA R2-S3 does not apply to this play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
In the play we are discussing in this thread, Team A correctly inbounded the ball and the game clock was incorrectly started, in this case too soon. The correct solution to the problem is to reset the clock to 2.8 seconds because that is the only definite knowledge that the officials have with respect to the amount of time left on the game clock. Since Team A had inbounded the ball properly after Team B’s successful field goal attempt, Team A receives the ball for a designated spot throw-in closest to the spot of where the ball was when play was stopped when the timing error was discovered. NFHS R2-S3 and NCAA R2-S3 does not apply to this play.

Mark, to avoid any further or future confusion, you really should replace "the correct solution" as written above in all future posts with "MY solution". You have no rules basis to label your personal opinion as actually being the correct answer by rule. If you can find a rule, any rule, that will back up your theory that you can have a designated spot throw-in where the ball was when the timing error was discovered, please post it. We've gone over this play ad infinitum and to death, and you've been unable to do so to date. There's nothing the matter with saying "my opinion is.....", but to label your opinion as being the "correct" one is ludicrous- especially when so many officials posting here completely disagree with you.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Mark, to avoid any further or future confusion, you really should replace "the correct solution" as written above in all future posts with "MY solution". You have no rules basis to label your personal opinion as actually being the correct answer by rule. If you can find a rule, any rule, that will back up your theory that you can have a designated spot throw-in where the ball was when the timing error was discovered, please post it. We've gone over this play ad infinitum and to death, and you've been unable to do so to date. There's nothing the matter with saying "my opinion is.....", but to label your opinion as being the "correct" one is ludicrous- especially when so many officials posting here completely disagree with you.

JR:

You are correct when you state that we have covered this play ad infinitum, we have also covered this play ad nauseum. And what I have stated in my previous post and the earlier thread is the correct solution. The rules governing when that clock shall start and stop cover this play. Team A did what the rules require it to do, the game clock operator started the clock incorrectly. The officials had definite knowledge of the time left on the game clock. The game is NOT over and R2-S3 is NOT the correct rule to apply here. Apply the rules that state when the Timer shall start the game clock. I am not saying to disregard the rules about the covering official signaling the Timer to start the game clock, but the rules that specifically state when the game clock shall start are the rules that govern in the play, not the rules about officials signaling the Timer to start the game clock.

MTD, Sr.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by jarecker1
2.8 seconds, 2 point game, team A leading and inbounding after a made 3 pointer by team B. My partner and I discuss possible scenarios during the time out granted right after the aforementioned made 3 pointer, primarily suggesting to be alert for any grabbing or pulling of team A by team B during the throw in and then perhaps a quick foul after the inbounds pass.
A1 throws the pass to out of bounds A2 parallel to the endline. A2 takes a few steps back toward A1 and passes it to A3, who is on the court. A split second later the horn blows. I am standing in front of the visiting bench (team B) who is going nuts yelling, "the clock started early, the clock started early". The timer swears he started the clock on my partners chop in, which happened when A1 passed to A2 (who, if you remember was still out of bounds). What to do, what to do?
I'll let you all noodle this one and I'll tell you what we did?
Other things to consider...
How many passes can team A throw to each other out of bounds? Can A2 run the endline after receiving the initial throw in pass from A1?

It is not fair for A to win via a timer's mistake.
It is not fair for B to lose via a timer's mistake.

(IOW, let the players decide the game.)

Result: do over. It's the only fair thing to do. Use 2-3 if you someone actually wants a reference.

[som44]

How about the other questions--How many times can they throw the ball to eachother while out of bounds--I assume until the 5 second count is up--also can player A2 run the endline--i would assume he can but wonder what others think

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by som44
How about the other questions--How many times can they throw the ball to eachother while out of bounds--I assume until the 5 second count is up--also can player A2 run the endline--i would assume he can but wonder what others think

You can have all 5 A players along the end line throwing the ball to each other, and every one of them can run along the endline holding, dribbling or passing the ball. All the officials really care about is that the ball has left one of those A player's hands on a real, live, honest-to-goodnesss throw-in pass before the 5 second count is over.

The next questions are: When all of those 5 A players are running the end-line, can they legally run OOB past the spot where the end and side-lines meet? With or without the ball? What if an A player is OOB past the spot where the lines meet and then makes the throw-in pass? Gotta rules citation to back your answer up?

[tjlref]

Suppose in this situation A1 passes to A2, who is still OOB, and A2 fumbles the ball and it rolls inbounds. Is this considered a pass inbounds or could A2 retrieve the ball, step back OOB and pass the ball inbounds to another player, as long as 5 seconds has not elapsed?


In another situation, if A2 did not catch the ball and it went beyond the sideline and went into the bench area or the stands, what now??

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
We discussed a play similar to this play earlier this year. And the thread was quite lengthy of my memory serves me correct. Hopefully Brad can resurrect it for the Forum.

But to make a long story short: It does not matter whether the Trail correctly or incorrectly signaled game clock to start, the game clock does not start until the throw-in touches a player on the court. In the play we are discussing in this thread, Team A correctly inbounded the ball and the game clock was incorrectly started, in this case too soon. The correct solution to the problem is to reset the clock to 2.8 seconds because that is the only definite knowledge that the officials have with respect to the amount of time left on the game clock. Since Team A had inbounded the ball properly after Team B’s successful field goal attempt, Team A receives the ball for a designated spot throw-in closest to the spot of where the ball was when play was stopped when the timing error was discovered. NFHS R2-S3 and NCAA R2-S3 does not apply to this play.

We went on for 25 posts apiece about this, IT IS NOT A TIMER'S ERROR. This play is NOT covered by a rule and neither is your solution.

We do have rules support to end the game on an official's error 5.10.1.C.

We can envoke 2-3 because it is not SPECIFICALLY covered, and the only way to do that is 2.8 seconds at the PREVIOUS spot.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

It is not fair for A to win via a timer's mistake.
It is not fair for B to lose via a timer's mistake.

(IOW, let the players decide the game.)

Result: do over. It's the only fair thing to do. Use 2-3 if you someone actually wants a reference.

It's not a Timer's mistake, it's an official's mistake. By rule the official signals the clock to start, and that is what the timer is supposed to do. That signal AND the clock starting should come on the touch by rule.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

So that this thread does not go on ad infinitum and ad nauseum I have just emailed Mary Struckhoff, Editor, NFHS Basketball Rules Committee, and have asked her to give us an official intepretation.

The actual play that I submitted to Mary is the play that was discussed during November and December 2003. The only difference the amount of time on the game clock and where A3 catches A2's throw-in. Here is what I emailed to Mary and hopefully she will give us a definitive answer, hopefully before Christmas.


PLAY: Team B scores a field goal. Team A immediately requests and is granted a team timeout. The game clock is stopped with 2.4 seconds left in the fourth quarter. After the team timeout is over the Trail official places the ball at the disposal of A1. A1 passes the ball to A2 who is also on the out-of-bounds side of the end line in Team A’s backcourt. A2 then releases a pass to A3 who catches the ball in the free throw lane of Team A’s front court. The Trail official mistakenly signals the Timer to start the game clock when A2 catches the pass from A1 (instead of signaling the Timer to start the game clock when A3 catches A2’s pass). The Timer mistakenly starts the game clock when the Trail official signals for the game clock to be started. Simultaneously with A3 catching A2’s passes the game clock’s horn sounds. Upon hearing the game clock horn, the game officials sound their whistles, stopping play. The game officials restarted the game with Team A receiving the ball for a throw-in on the endline in its frontcourt with 2.0 seconds on the game clock.

Did the game officials restart the game correctly? The officiating crew for this game was a two-person crew.

I take the position that the game officials were correct in how they restarted the game, even though I am inclined to reset the clock to 2.4 seconds.

I base my interpretation upon rules references and casebook plays in this year’s NFHS Rules Book and Casebook.
RULES:
R2-S5-A5
R2-S12-A3, A6, and A7 (This reference may or may not be germane to this play but they are listed among the Timer’s duties.)
R5-S8 (I include this entire section because it may or may not be germane to this play, but it lists the Timer’s responsibilities regarding stopping the game clock.)
R5-S9-A1 and A4
R5-S10-A1 and A2
CASEBOOK PLAYS:
5.9.3
5.9.4
5.10.1 Situations A, B (as well as the Comment), D(a, b c, and d), and E
5.10.2


MTD, Sr.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
It's not a Timer's mistake, it's an official's mistake. By rule the official signals the clock to start, and that is what the timer is supposed to do. That signal AND the clock starting should come on the touch by rule.

So then both the timer snd the official made a mistake.

The point is that the players get cheated unless you do a do-over.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

So then both the timer snd the official made a mistake.

The point is that the players get cheated unless you do a do-over.

The timer did their job 5-9-1, it is an official's error and we do have a rule reference to go by in 5.10.1.C for an officials error causing the time to run out.

5.10.1.C does not fit this play EXACTLY, so 2-3 could be envoked by granting a do over. None of the Timer's error rulings apply to this situation.