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[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cobra, right there is all that I need to know about you and your rules knowledge.

I wouldn't be talking if I were you. Earlier you said the ball becomes dead on the whistle when a foul is called. Even if I'm wrong on this, at least it is a complicated situation. You don't even know the fundamentals.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

According to you, the foul occured when the wrong thrower stepped out of bounds.

I never said that, that is just the situation being discussed.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Aamof I still can't find in post #6 where anybody EVER blew a whistle for the technical foul on the thrower. But you still insist that the ball was dead by rule all through that lengthy time interval.

No technical foul was called at all in post #6. We are talking about a different situation. You keep talking about the whistle. When the whistle occurred means nothing. The foul could be called without a whistle.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm kinda wondering why the other coach would get upset and get the T" after the made 3-pointer once you told him the throw-in never happened, the 3-pointer was no good and he was getting 2 free throws and the ball. You'd think he'd be kinda happy about that rather than being pissed off, wouldn't you?

Hold on....you are mixing the two situations together. You need to stop picking and choosing which situation you talking about depending on which one makes you slightly look less stupid.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Look, the fact is JR was talking about Post #6. You were discussing post #6 plus Camron's wrinkle.
You were talking past each other. The sooner you guys realize this the sooner you can go back to whatever it was you were doing.

Nope. JR was discussing the wrinkle in several posts. He said some stupid things then tried to cover it up by saying he was talking about #6.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Do you even realize the fact that you are contradicting yourself???

That is way too long - BUT there is no time limit.

Good grief.

No I'm not. There is no time limit to go back and call a foul. But at some point it just becomes too long even though the rules still allow the foul to be called. Same thing with violations. No one is going to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago even though the rules allow it to be done.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Cobra

When the whistle occurred means nothing. The foul could be called without a whistle.

There is no time limit to go back and call a foul. But at some point it just becomes too long even though the rules still allow the foul to be called. Same thing with violations. No one is going to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago even though the rules allow it to be done.

That just about says it all...... again.

You can call a foul without a whistle and there's no time limit to go back and call that foul.

And the rules allow us to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago.

Do the rules also allow us to go back and call a foul or violation from last week?

You really aren't an official, are you?

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That just about says it all...... again.

You can call a foul without a whistle and there's no time limit to go back and call that foul.

And the rules allow us to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago.

Do the rules also allow us to go back and call a foul or violation from last week?

You really aren't an official, are you?

Can someone please post the rules which state...

1) What the time limit to call a foul is after it occurs.
2) What the time limit to call a violation is after it occurs.
3) That a sounding the whistle is required for calling a foul.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Cobra: After 150 posts I'm sure that you don't know who you're dealing with here. Gruff. Yes. Impatient? Yes. Condescending? Yes. Sarcastic? Yes. Handsome? Yes

"Don't even know the fundamentals"? Wrong. There are only four, or five, regular posters on the Forum that that have the basketball officiating knowledge that Jurassic Referee has. He's gonna be right 98% of the time.

Now I suggest that you don't make eye contact, and just back away slowly. Very slowly. He may spare your life.

Ok, thanks. But you must have missed it where he told us at what point the ball becomes dead when a foul is involved.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The ball was dead on the whistle for the "T".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I wouldn't be talking if I were you. You don't even know the fundamentals. Makes you slightly look less stupid.

Cobra: After 150 posts I'm sure that you don't know who you're dealing with here. Gruff. Yes. Impatient? Yes. Condescending? Yes. Sarcastic? Yes. Handsome? Yes

"Don't even know the fundamentals"? Wrong. There are only four, or five, regular posters on the Forum that that have the basketball officiating knowledge that Jurassic Referee has. He's gonna be right 98% of the time.

Now I suggest that you don't make eye contact, and just back away slowly. Very slowly. He may spare your life.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

He's gonna be right 98% of the time.

Agreed. But them other 2% can be a real, uh, bear. Yeah, that's the word.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Cobra

No I'm not.
There is no time limit to go back and call a foul.
But at some point it just becomes too long

But you aren't contradicting yourself at all, are you?

So how do you - in your infinite wisdom and knowledge of the rules and how to apply them - decide when it has "become too long?"

Is it the same amount of time each game? Or does it change from Monday night's Girls Varsity to Tuesday night's Boys JV to Wednesday night's NAIA game?

What criteria do you use to decide when it has been too long?

And how many points are you willing to take off the board?

Have you followed - the last few years - the situations in NCAA games where officials allowed "do-overs"?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So how do you - in your infinite wisdom and knowledge of the rules and how to apply them - decide when it has "become too long?"

We all know that there is no specific rule-based time limit on calling most violations or fouls. But there is a point where it is just too late and that is part of the art of officiating.

The primary point which I'm trying to get across is that when several events happen close together, you don't have to beat the 2nd event with your whistle to penalize the first event. Why Jurassic was insisting that was the case and why that has been so difficult for others to accept, I have yet to figure out.

[Raymond]

I thought I posted this somewhere earlier but I can't find so I'll ask again:

A1 steals B1's dribble and has a breakaway lay-up. While A1 is crossing the 3-point line Coach B says to you loudly "That was f**king horrible". You do not blow your whistle. A1 finishes his drive to the basket and makes a lay-up.

What is the proper administration of this play?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I thought I posted this somewhere earlier but I can't find so I'll ask again:

A1 steals B1's dribble and has a breakaway lay-up. While A1 is crossing the 3-point line Coach B says to you loudly "That was f**king horrible". You do not blow your whistle. A1 finishes his drive to the basket and makes a lay-up.

What is the proper administration of this play?

You then blow your whistle, issue the flagrant technical to Coach B, toss his butt out of the gym, administer the T and spend the rest of the game feeling good.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I thought I posted this somewhere earlier but I can't find so I'll ask again:

A1 steals B1's dribble and has a breakaway lay-up. While A1 is crossing the 3-point line Coach B says to you loudly "That was f**king horrible". You do not blow your whistle. A1 finishes his drive to the basket and makes a lay-up.

What is the proper administration of this play?

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

You then blow your whistle, issue the flagrant technical to Coach B, toss his butt out of the gym, administer the T and spend the rest of the game feeling good.

And wipe out the basket since his flagrant act made the ball dead?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And wipe out the basket since his flagrant act made the ball dead?

Of course not. I said it before...there is a SPECIFIC case play that instructs us to wait until after the basket and then call the T. But that is a very specific case to prevent a coach/player form gaining an unfair advantage. The case leads you to the "right" result even if it actually contradicts the rules.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cobra

No technical foul was called at all in post #6. We are talking about a different situation. You keep talking about the whistle. When the whistle occurred means nothing. The foul could be called without a whistle.

Did you even read post #6?

And really? How do you propose to call a foul without a whistle in this situation?

Originally Posted by Cobra

Nope. JR was discussing the wrinkle in several posts. He said some stupid things then tried to cover it up by saying he was talking about #6.

Here you're just wrong. He absolutely was discussing post #6 the entire time; even if others (including me) didn't quite realize it. As I said, you guys were arguing past each other.

Originally Posted by Cobra

No I'm not. There is no time limit to go back and call a foul. But at some point it just becomes too long even though the rules still allow the foul to be called. Same thing with violations. No one is going to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago even though the rules allow it to be done.

2-10 lists the errors that may be corrected and the time frame in which such correction must be made. No where is a travel listed in that, so I'd say the rules in fact do not allow you to go back and call a travel from several plays before.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And really? How do you propose to call a foul without a whistle in this situation?

The same way as in any other situation.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here you're just wrong. He absolutely was discussing post #6 the entire time; even if others (including me) didn't quite realize it. As I said, you guys were arguing past each other.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Here he is directly quoting the situation in which the technical foul is called on the thrower and he said the ball is "dead on the whistle."

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Originally Posted by Snaqwells

2-10 lists the errors that may be corrected and the time frame in which such correction must be made. No where is a travel listed in that, so I'd say the rules in fact do not allow you to go back and call a travel from several plays before.

That has nothing to do with this play. There was no error. The official just took longer than normal to call the violation after it occurred.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The same way as in any other situation.

I've never called a foul during action without a whistle, so you'll have to enlighten me.

Originally Posted by Cobra

Sorry, but you are wrong. Here he is directly quoting the situation in which the technical foul is called on the thrower and he said the ball is "dead on the whistle."

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Yeah, he said it was dead on the whistle, which I take (knowing how well he knows the rules) as a mis-speak rather than an error in rules knowledge. But reading it with the understanding that he was talking about the TF mentioned in post #6, it's all the more clear. He was assuming the TF that was being discussed was (a) after the basket and (b) on the team who had just been screwed by the officials' inability to pay attention.

Originally Posted by Cobra

That has nothing to do with this play. There was no error. The official just took longer than normal to call the violation after it occurred.

It's the only place that talks about the ability to fix a mistake, and that's exactly what a missed travel call is. I wouldn't say the rules allow for fixing that error; even though the precise limit on "when is too late" isn't really specified.

I'm obviously giving Jurassic more benefit of the doubt than you are; but he's earned it on this board quite frankly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1) Yeah, he said it was dead on the whistle, which I take (knowing how well he knows the rules) as a mis-speak rather than an error in rules knowledge. But reading it with the understanding that he was talking about the TF mentioned in post #6, it's all the more clear. He was assuming the TF that was being discussed was (a) after the basket and (b) on the team who had just been screwed by the officials' inability to pay attention.

2) It's the only place that talks about the ability to fix a mistake, and that's exactly what a missed travel call is. I wouldn't say the rules allow for fixing that error; even though the precise limit on "when is too late" isn't really specified.

1) Yes, I was assuming that because that was the only whistle that was ever blown in post #6. I can't seriously consider as being logical that you can have a technical foul occur right after a throw-in, a team then goes up court and takes a 3-pointer and makes it, and after the made 3-pointer there's an argument resulting in a whistle for a technical foul..... and there's still hasn't been a whistle ever been blown for the original technical foul that occurred right after the throw-in ended. But we're supposed to think the ball was dead through all that. Maybe it's just me, but I just can't buy the logic on that one.

2) There's no precise time limit set between a foul or violation occuring and the whistle for that foul or violation but there is common sense plus an understanding of what is usually expected from us as officials. A patient whistle is good sometimes..... not all the time..... but if you see a foul or violation occur and you don't blow your whistle for that foul or violation within about 2 or 3 seconds max, you might as well let it go because the play is now usually long gone. Hell, the play might be half the court away in that 2 or 3 seconds. And if you want to wait for...gasp...more than 5 seconds to blow your whistle after a foul or violation occured, well, all I can say is good luck to in your new job as one of chseagle's assistants. There's real life out there. And that is why I can't really take any of Cobra's arguments seriously.

Jmo fwiw....