Possesion Arrow Error

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cobra, right there is all that I need to know about you and your rules knowledge.

I wouldn't be talking if I were you. Earlier you said the ball becomes dead on the whistle when a foul is called. Even if I'm wrong on this, at least it is a complicated situation. You don't even know the fundamentals.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

According to you, the foul occured when the wrong thrower stepped out of bounds.

I never said that, that is just the situation being discussed.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Aamof I still can't find in post #6 where anybody EVER blew a whistle for the technical foul on the thrower. But you still insist that the ball was dead by rule all through that lengthy time interval.

No technical foul was called at all in post #6. We are talking about a different situation. You keep talking about the whistle. When the whistle occurred means nothing. The foul could be called without a whistle.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm kinda wondering why the other coach would get upset and get the T" after the made 3-pointer once you told him the throw-in never happened, the 3-pointer was no good and he was getting 2 free throws and the ball. You'd think he'd be kinda happy about that rather than being pissed off, wouldn't you?

Hold on....you are mixing the two situations together. You need to stop picking and choosing which situation you talking about depending on which one makes you slightly look less stupid.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Look, the fact is JR was talking about Post #6. You were discussing post #6 plus Camron's wrinkle.
You were talking past each other. The sooner you guys realize this the sooner you can go back to whatever it was you were doing.

Nope. JR was discussing the wrinkle in several posts. He said some stupid things then tried to cover it up by saying he was talking about #6.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Do you even realize the fact that you are contradicting yourself???

That is way too long - BUT there is no time limit.

Good grief.

No I'm not. There is no time limit to go back and call a foul. But at some point it just becomes too long even though the rules still allow the foul to be called. Same thing with violations. No one is going to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago even though the rules allow it to be done.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

My concerns with this specific situation are:

You have to be 100% certain it was a deliberate subversion of fair play. The NFHS has made it clear that there are certain types of actions that are just not part of basketball and should not be permitted. For example, the barking dog distraction, on its own, is not obviously against any rule that I can find...but they want it whistled as a T. There are other examples. I view a purposeful attempt to cheat like this in the same vein....it doesn't belong in the game and should be addressed whether there is a specific rule against it or not. But again, you better be 100% sure.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Cobra

When the whistle occurred means nothing. The foul could be called without a whistle.

There is no time limit to go back and call a foul. But at some point it just becomes too long even though the rules still allow the foul to be called. Same thing with violations. No one is going to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago even though the rules allow it to be done.

That just about says it all...... again.

You can call a foul without a whistle and there's no time limit to go back and call that foul.

And the rules allow us to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago.

Do the rules also allow us to go back and call a foul or violation from last week?

You really aren't an official, are you?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I wouldn't be talking if I were you. You don't even know the fundamentals. Makes you slightly look less stupid.

Cobra: After 150 posts I'm sure that you don't know who you're dealing with here. Gruff. Yes. Impatient? Yes. Condescending? Yes. Sarcastic? Yes. Handsome? Yes

"Don't even know the fundamentals"? Wrong. There are only four, or five, regular posters on the Forum that that have the basketball officiating knowledge that Jurassic Referee has. He's gonna be right 98% of the time.

Now I suggest that you don't make eye contact, and just back away slowly. Very slowly. He may spare your life.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

He's gonna be right 98% of the time.

Agreed. But them other 2% can be a real, uh, bear. Yeah, that's the word.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You have to be 100% certain it was a deliberate subversion of fair play........

I agree completely with this. From what was posted, IMHO, there isn't enough information to be 100% sure it was deliberate - there are other plausible explanations, and good reasons why any coach with half a brain that deliberately planned something like this would not make a statement like that which draws attention to it.

And it still doesn't address the fact that if the officials were doing their job in the first place it would never have happened anyway regardless of their intent.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That just about says it all...... again.

You can call a foul without a whistle and there's no time limit to go back and call that foul.

And the rules allow us to go back and call traveling from 5 minutes ago.

Do the rules also allow us to go back and call a foul or violation from last week?

You really aren't an official, are you?

Can someone please post the rules which state...

1) What the time limit to call a foul is after it occurs.
2) What the time limit to call a violation is after it occurs.
3) That a sounding the whistle is required for calling a foul.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Cobra: After 150 posts I'm sure that you don't know who you're dealing with here. Gruff. Yes. Impatient? Yes. Condescending? Yes. Sarcastic? Yes. Handsome? Yes

"Don't even know the fundamentals"? Wrong. There are only four, or five, regular posters on the Forum that that have the basketball officiating knowledge that Jurassic Referee has. He's gonna be right 98% of the time.

Now I suggest that you don't make eye contact, and just back away slowly. Very slowly. He may spare your life.

Ok, thanks. But you must have missed it where he told us at what point the ball becomes dead when a foul is involved.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The ball was dead on the whistle for the "T".

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Cobra

No I'm not.
There is no time limit to go back and call a foul.
But at some point it just becomes too long

But you aren't contradicting yourself at all, are you?

So how do you - in your infinite wisdom and knowledge of the rules and how to apply them - decide when it has "become too long?"

Is it the same amount of time each game? Or does it change from Monday night's Girls Varsity to Tuesday night's Boys JV to Wednesday night's NAIA game?

What criteria do you use to decide when it has been too long?

And how many points are you willing to take off the board?

Have you followed - the last few years - the situations in NCAA games where officials allowed "do-overs"?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So how do you - in your infinite wisdom and knowledge of the rules and how to apply them - decide when it has "become too long?"

We all know that there is no specific rule-based time limit on calling most violations or fouls. But there is a point where it is just too late and that is part of the art of officiating.

The primary point which I'm trying to get across is that when several events happen close together, you don't have to beat the 2nd event with your whistle to penalize the first event. Why Jurassic was insisting that was the case and why that has been so difficult for others to accept, I have yet to figure out.

[Raymond]

I thought I posted this somewhere earlier but I can't find so I'll ask again:

A1 steals B1's dribble and has a breakaway lay-up. While A1 is crossing the 3-point line Coach B says to you loudly "That was f**king horrible". You do not blow your whistle. A1 finishes his drive to the basket and makes a lay-up.

What is the proper administration of this play?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I thought I posted this somewhere earlier but I can't find so I'll ask again:

A1 steals B1's dribble and has a breakaway lay-up. While A1 is crossing the 3-point line Coach B says to you loudly "That was f**king horrible". You do not blow your whistle. A1 finishes his drive to the basket and makes a lay-up.

What is the proper administration of this play?

You then blow your whistle, issue the flagrant technical to Coach B, toss his butt out of the gym, administer the T and spend the rest of the game feeling good.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I thought I posted this somewhere earlier but I can't find so I'll ask again:

A1 steals B1's dribble and has a breakaway lay-up. While A1 is crossing the 3-point line Coach B says to you loudly "That was f**king horrible". You do not blow your whistle. A1 finishes his drive to the basket and makes a lay-up.

What is the proper administration of this play?

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

You then blow your whistle, issue the flagrant technical to Coach B, toss his butt out of the gym, administer the T and spend the rest of the game feeling good.

And wipe out the basket since his flagrant act made the ball dead?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And wipe out the basket since his flagrant act made the ball dead?

Of course not. I said it before...there is a SPECIFIC case play that instructs us to wait until after the basket and then call the T. But that is a very specific case to prevent a coach/player form gaining an unfair advantage. The case leads you to the "right" result even if it actually contradicts the rules.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And wipe out the basket since his flagrant act made the ball dead?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Of course not. I said it before...there is a SPECIFIC case play that instructs us to wait until after the basket and then call the T. But that is a very specific case to prevent a coach/player form gaining an unfair advantage. The case leads you to the "right" result even if it actually contradicts the rules.

Well, isn't there a very specific case play involving the wrong team throwing in the ball and then scoring? It seems like folks are deciding to expand that very specific case play to a similar, but not the same, situation. The very specific case play involving the throw-in states specifically in which situation we can wipe out the points.

[RookieDude]

Cobra...I appreciate your enthusiasm.

What I do not appreciate is your disrespect for a guy that has helped more people on this forum than you can imagine.

You may be a big dog where you are from...but, JR is the big dog here.
Give him some respect, even if you don't agree with him, you will gain more respect that way.

(Do you see Camron, another big dog, giving him a lack of respect...even when he disagrees with him?)

There is a way to debate things...and then there is a way of getting into a pi$$ing match. You will get the respect you deserve here when you learn that...IMHO.