If I could change one rule, it would be....

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I understand your preventive officiating point of view, and I respect your experience, but I have never cared for the so-called "strategy" of fouling to stop the clock, and I believe if you're going to foul, at least you can try to steal the ball. (Such attempted steals are very seldom excessive.) Otherwise, I don't believe you deserve the advantage of a stopped clock, and as always, we need to be concerned about advantage/disadvantage.

Well, unfortunately for you, the NFHS disagrees with you.

2006-07 NFHS Points of Emphasis
Intentional Fouls
"Fouling is an accepted coaching strategy late in the game. There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling."

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Deja vu, man.

Looks like double whistles to me. Snaqs and 26 need to confer. (with BBR as the third man).

Very well, then. You have the facts (particularly BBR with the P.O.E. citation).

However, once again, I'm not talking about obvious advantageous contact. That should always be called, regardless of the time, and called intentional when necessary. Similarly, trifling contact is often ruled incidental throughout the game.

Never did I say to swallow your whistle. I'm talking about the tap on the back or arm when the dribbler has clearly passed the defender, and has an easy path toward his desired direction. Such contact is typically passed upon, as it didn't create a clear advantage.

If your message is "let the defense stop the clock by calling everything," aren't we abandoning the very advantage/disadvatange judgment we need to do our jobs effectively?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Looks like double whistles to me. Snaqs and 26 need to confer. (with BBR as the third man).

Very well, then. You have the facts (particularly BBR with the P.O.E. citation).

However, once again, I'm not talking about obvious advantageous contact. That should always be called, regardless of the time, and called intentional when necessary. Similarly, trifling contact is often ruled incidental throughout the game.

Never did I say to swallow your whistle. I'm talking about the tap on the back or arm when the dribbler has clearly passed the defender, and has an easy path toward his desired direction. Such contact is typically passed upon, as it didn't create a clear advantage.

If your message is "let the defense stop the clock by calling everything," aren't we abandoning the very advantage/disadvatange judgment we need to do our jobs effectively?

I'm not abandoning that entirely. I am mindful, though, that the defense is trying to foul in that situation. Therefore, if a player comes up and "reaches in" and contacts the ball handler, yes, I am calling that a bit differently than the rest of the game. I'm calling that foul. If I don't, that defender will foul a bit harder assuming that I didn't see the original foul attempt. Then the defender will knock the ball handler down.

I'm not saying I'll blow the whistle when the defender gets within a foot of the player, but I know the game situation and I'm mindful that the defense is going to attempt to foul quickly. My goal is to make sure that when the contact happens to get the foul and stop any possible escalation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by richmsn

i'm not saying i'll blow the whistle when the defender gets within a foot of the player, but i know the game situation and i'm mindful that the defense is going to attempt to foul quickly. My goal is to make sure that when the contact happens to get the foul and stop any possible escalation.

+1

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm not abandoning that entirely. I am mindful, though, that the defense is trying to foul in that situation. Therefore, if a player comes up and "reaches in" and contacts the ball handler, yes, I am calling that a bit differently than the rest of the game. I'm calling that foul. If I don't, that defender will foul a bit harder assuming that I didn't see the original foul attempt. Then the defender will knock the ball handler down.

I'm not saying I'll blow the whistle when the defender gets within a foot of the player, but I know the game situation and I'm mindful that the defense is going to attempt to foul quickly. My goal is to make sure that when the contact happens to get the foul and stop any possible escalation.

Yup. Game management.

[Larks]

Originally Posted by richmsn

my goal is to make sure that when the contact happens to get the foul and stop any possible escalation.

+1

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Looks like double whistles to me. Snaqs and 26 need to confer. (with BBR as the third man).

Very well, then. You have the facts (particularly BBR with the P.O.E. citation).

However, once again, I'm not talking about obvious advantageous contact. That should always be called, regardless of the time, and called intentional when necessary. Similarly, trifling contact is often ruled incidental throughout the game.

Never did I say to swallow your whistle. I'm talking about the tap on the back or arm when the dribbler has clearly passed the defender, and has an easy path toward his desired direction. Such contact is typically passed upon, as it didn't create a clear advantage.

If your message is "let the defense stop the clock by calling everything," aren't we abandoning the very advantage/disadvatange judgment we need to do our jobs effectively?

I'm not answering for Rich, but I won't call the slap on the wrist if the dribbler is in the process of beating a defender who has essentially stopped playing defense in order to foul. If, however, the offense is just standing there waiting to be fouled, I'm not waiting for the arm to come off before calling a foul.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bainsey

If your message is "let the defense stop the clock by calling everything," aren't we abandoning the very advantage/disadvatange judgment we need to do our jobs effectively?

Spin it all you want, no one has said that.

You've had several veteran officials explain to you how to manage this point in the game. It's about more than just blowing the whistle. My wife can blow a whistle. You'd be wise to try and pick up something here, rather than arguing about it.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not answering for Rich, but I won't call the slap on the wrist if the dribbler is in the process of beating a defender who has essentially stopped playing defense in order to foul. If, however, the offense is just standing there waiting to be fouled, I'm not waiting for the arm to come off before calling a foul.

+1

That's an excellent example of what I mean.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Spin it all you want...

Neither spinning nor arguing, sir. Merely questioning, and I took plenty. I think we're on the same page more than it may appear.

[DesMoines]

Snaqs: "Particularly if the offense is trying to avoid being fouled."

Had one of these earlier this year and the defensive coach was whining about not getting the quick whistle to stop the clock.

Me: Coach, he didn't foul him the first time. He missed.
Coach: Yeah, my kids just aren't very aggressive.

Not sure about his definition... I think we had already called about 25 fouls on his squad.

[BktBallRef]

Doesn't mean we're fighting, dude. It's called arguing a point and we do it all the time here.

And yes, you did spin it. No one has advocated calling "the tap on the back or arm when the dribbler has clearly passed the defender," or "let the defense stop the clock by calling everything."

We advocate that:

1 - The NFHS, NCAA, FIBA, and the NBA all recognize that strategic fouling is part of the game of basketball.

2- When you know the defense is trying to commit a strategic foul, call the first significant contact so that the contact doesn't escalate.

Finally, don't call me sir.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Doesn't mean we're fighting, dude. It's called arguing a point and we do it all the time here.

And yes, you did spin it. No one has advocated calling "the tap on the back or arm when the dribbler has clearly passed the defender," or "let the defense stop the clock by calling everything."

We advocate that:

1 - The NFHS, NCAA, FIBA, and the NBA all recognize that strategic fouling is part of the game of basketball.

2- When you know the defense is trying to commit a strategic foul, call the first significant contact so that the contact doesn't escalate.

Finally, don't call me sir.

(Not talking to you, but just as good a place as any to jump in....)

Of course that's what I meant, too. I'm not calling that tap with the ball handler past the defender at *any* point of the game and certainly not here, either.

But there are fouls near the end of the game where, had they happened earlier, I would've passed and hesitated to see if the ball handler could play through the contact. Big difference is that early in the game, the defender is trying to avoid picking up the foul and will immediately back off if he's close to getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

Late in the game, the contact will escalate (normally) until we call the foul. That first bump, well, I see no reason to see if A can play through it. Because if I do, the next contact could lead to injury, retaliation, or worse.

If we have a timeout, we'll be getting together and saying, "They're going to be trying to foul. Let's get the first one."

Regarding intentional fouls -- I see no reason to be a pioneer. I call them when the game and the NFHS expects them to be called.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Regarding intentional fouls -- I see no reason to be a pioneer. I call them when the game and the NFHS expects them to be called.

Great discussion folks, really enjoying this one.

Rich, I called one last year in a middle school game when a team was fouling late in the game. The player grabbed his opponent and bear hugged him big time. Easy intentional in my view but boy did the fouling team's coach come unglued on that one. Expected I suppose but my partner also told me in no uncertain terms that was a bad call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Great discussion folks, really enjoying this one.

Rich, I called one last year in a middle school game when a team was fouling late in the game. The player grabbed his opponent and bear hugged him big time. Easy intentional in my view but boy did the fouling team's coach come unglued on that one. Expected I suppose but my partner also told me in no uncertain terms that was a bad call.

You really have to take middle school coaches and partners with a grain of salt.

The best part of working varsity ball is that you rarely see that level of stupidity from players and when you do, the coach will usually be on the player, not you.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Of course that's what I meant, too. I'm not calling that tap with the ball handler past the defender at *any* point of the game and certainly not here, either.

I know it's obnoxious to quote myself, but I wanted to add one thing -- part of the equation of whether I call the foul here is whether a defender is in position to escalate the situation. If it's one defender who "swings and almost misses" and there's nobody anywhere near the ball as the guard goes by, I see no reason to have a different standard. But what normally happens is (a) the guard lets the foul happen or (b) there's another defender right there who will follow-up the no call with a harder foul. That's when I'm jumping in.

I've seen teams come back in games where the officials try to let the clock run and pass on legitimate fouls only to see B steal the ball and go the other way. That's one thing I try to make sure never happens.