Travel? Loss of Possession?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No problem. Also note, if the player had used his dribble, he cannot dribble again unless the defense another player touched the ball while it was loose or caused it to come loose.

Fixed it for you.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Fixed it for you.

Good point, thanks.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

Taken literally, this could lead to some interesting situations....A1 jumps, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 lands. This rule, taken alone, would mean that A1 traveled regardless of who subsequently touches the ball.

In fact, try this one....A1 jumps, B1 blocks A1's try before A1 released te ball the ball. A1 lands. This rule, taken alone, would mean that A1 traveled.

The point....this rule assumes it is not complicated by other actions such as a fumble, a blocked shot, or who knows what.

As has been said, a blocked shot or a fumble changes everything. A1 is now a player gaining control of a loose ball.

Imagine this one....

A1 having used their dribble establishes a pivot foot. A1 fumbles the ball. A1 takes 5 steps in order to get the ball. A1 again establishes a piviot foot in the new location. Has A1 violated at any point along the way? No. A1 can not travel while not holding the ball (player control).

[johnsonboys03]

I'm not understanding some of the thought proccess. He didn't just "jump" he started the habitual motion that preceeds a release of the ball trying to score a goal...that is totally different by rule than a jump. The only legal things he can do from there before he touches the ground is release the ball on a pass or try for a goal. I've played this game for a long time and coached for a long time...only officiated for a short time but it's always been a travell. And when studying the rule it shows travell. Not saying I'm right I just haven't seen anything rule quote wise that is changing my mind

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

I'm not understanding some of the thought proccess. He didn't just "jump" he started the habitual motion that preceeds a release of the ball trying to score a goal...that is totally different by rule than a jump. The only legal things he can do from there before he touches the ground is release the ball on a pass or try for a goal. I've played this game for a long time and coached for a long time...only officiated for a short time but it's always been a travell. And when studying the rule it shows travell. Not saying I'm right I just haven't seen anything rule quote wise that is changing my mind

Rule 4-21 = "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a players grasp"

Therefore whether a jump or a shot how can it be a travel if the player lost player control?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

I'm not understanding some of the thought proccess. He didn't just "jump" he started the habitual motion that preceeds a release of the ball trying to score a goal...that is totally different by rule than a jump. The only legal things he can do from there before he touches the ground is release the ball on a pass or try for a goal. I've played this game for a long time and coached for a long time...only officiated for a short time but it's always been a travell. And when studying the rule it shows travell. Not saying I'm right I just haven't seen anything rule quote wise that is changing my mind

Sadly, the thinking from all of your years of experience would give you the wrong ruling during an NCAA game.

So what does that tell you?

A.R. 82. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 (a) recovers the fumble while airborne, or (b) recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct? RULING: Yes. In (a) and (b) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball, A1 started a second dribble. However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after a return to the floor), he is permitted to start a dribble.

[johnsonboys03]

Like I said I'm not saying I'm right.
All my years of experience where at the high school level and not NCAA. I'm sure the rule may differ between the two.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

I'm not understanding some of the thought proccess. He didn't just "jump" he started the habitual motion that preceeds a release of the ball trying to score a goal...that is totally different by rule than a jump. The only legal things he can do from there before he touches the ground is release the ball on a pass or try for a goal. I've played this game for a long time and coached for a long time...only officiated for a short time but it's always been a travell. And when studying the rule it shows travell. Not saying I'm right I just haven't seen anything rule quote wise that is changing my mind

You're hung up on the fact that it was a try; it doesn't matter. He could have jumped to pass, it's the same thing. You're not looking at the right rule; read the case play. By your logic, 4.44.3A would be a travel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

Like I said I'm not saying I'm right.
All my years of experience where at the high school level and not NCAA. I'm sure the rule may differ between the two.

Nope.

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sadly, the thinking from all of your years of experience would give you the wrong ruling during an NCAA game.

So what does that tell you?

A.R. 82. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 (a) recovers the fumble while airborne, or (b) recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct? RULING: Yes. In (a) and (b) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball, A1 started a second dribble. However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after a return to the floor), he is permitted to start a dribble.

The touch by the opponent has to cause a loss of control in order for A1 to dribble a second time, right?

[johnsonboys03]

Ok I will look into this deeper. Thanks all

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CDurham

The touch by the opponent has to cause a loss of control in order for A1 to dribble a second time, right?

Or be during the lost control; and it doesn't have to be an opponent.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Wrong, the fumble changes everything.

This is the only written NFHS ruling that I've ever seen on this action.

2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

Just saying...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the only written NFHS ruling that I've ever seen on this action.

2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS
SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00)
SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4—43-3a; 94)

Just saying...

Soooooooo?

If A1 is an airborne shooter, fumbles the ball, grabs it again in the air without it being touched by another player and then lands with the ball, using the same logic it's also traveling because the ball was never released on a pass or a try?

Just asking.....

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Twinfan

Back to a travel call then. He left the floor in control of the ball. His legal options while in the air are pass or shoot. He came back down in control of the ball, he had not passed or shot - travel is the violation.

Why are you all assuming that he was jumping for a try or a pass? This could have been a jump stop. If you judge that he was passing or it was a try then I agree, travel. However, a player can leap off of one foot and land simultaneously on both feet and not be called for a travel. In this case I know of no rule or case book play that says a momentary loss of control constitutes a travel.