Travel? Loss of Possession?

[CDurham]

A1 is dribbling and jumps into the air. Somehow the ball slips from his grasp above his head and hangs in the air for a split second. While the ball is separated, his hands/arms are moving "frantically" in order to re-grab the ball. He then grabs the ball and lands.

Loss of possession therefore legal?

Or Travel?

Thanks!

[Twinfan]

It would be a travel as you described it.

If it had been tapped out of his hands by an opposing player, or touched by someone else while in the air, then no violation. If he is under the basket and you have some doubt about whether it was a shot attempt, then consider it a shot - and no violation.

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by Twinfan

It would be a travel as you described it.

If it had been tapped out of his hands by an opposing player, or touched by someone else while in the air, then no violation. If he is under the basket and you have some doubt about whether it was a shot attempt, then consider it a shot - and no violation.

What is the rule reference for losing control and having to be by an opponent? Is it not possible to fumble in the air? Just wondering.

4-21: Fumble is accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a players grasp.

Thanks

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Twinfan

It would be a travel as you described it.

If it had been tapped out of his hands by an opposing player, or touched by someone else while in the air, then no violation. If he is under the basket and you have some doubt about whether it was a shot attempt, then consider it a shot - and no violation.

A player can gather the ball and jump off of one foot and land on both feet and not be a travel. Why does a moementary loss of the ball matter? The dribble ended when the player gathered the ball. The temporary loss of possession adds nothing to this as far as I can see. I need a rule reference to change my mind.

[Adam]

If you think it was a fumble, no violation.
If you think it was a try for goal, no violation.
If you think he purposefully let it go and grabbed it, travel.

Note, a defensive touch is not required for the first two.

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you think it was a fumble, no violation.
If you think it was a try for goal, no violation.
If you think he purposefully let it go and grabbed it, travel.

Okay. Thanks Snaqs. Was making sure I was thinking correctly.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CDurham

Okay. Thanks Snaqs. Was making sure I was thinking correctly.

No problem. Also note, if the player had used his dribble, he cannot dribble again unless the defense another player touched the ball while it was loose or caused it to come loose.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you think it was a fumble, no violation.
If you think it was a try for goal, no violation.
If you think he purposefully let it go and grabbed it, travel.

Note, a defensive touch is not required for the first two.

For it to be travel, he would have to drop the ball to the floor and then be the first to touch it, wouldn't he?

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by rwest

For it to be travel, he would have to drop the ball to the floor and then be the first to touch it, wouldn't he?

IMO the last has to do with intentionally. A legal fumble has to be unintentionally dropping the ball or it slipping for grasp. So therefore A1 never lost control legally of the ball resulting in a travel if he came back down to the floor.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by rwest

For it to be travel, he would have to drop the ball to the floor and then be the first to touch it, wouldn't he?

If he is fumbling the ball, what diff does it make. He is allowed to go and retrieve the ball. Like Snags said, if he regains control of the ball and starts another dribble then we don't have a travel, we got an illegal dribble

[johnsonboys03]

NFHS..... rule4-41 art. 3 and 4. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

rule 4-21 A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips fro from the players grasp.

So using all these rules I would say that if the player dribbled and then shot he definitely established a pivot foot. He then did the motion that habitually preceded the release of the ball. But because the try was not deemed unsuccessful do to it not becoming dead or hitting the floor he would have placed the pivot foot back on the floor with the ball in his hands causing the travel. If he would have let the ball hit the floor causing the try to be unsuccessful then no travel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

NFHS..... rule4-41 art. 3 and 4. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

rule 4-21 A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips fro from the players grasp.

So using all these rules I would say that if the player dribbled and then shot he definitely established a pivot foot. He then did the motion that habitually preceded the release of the ball. But because the try was not deemed unsuccessful do to it not becoming dead or hitting the floor he would have placed the pivot foot back on the floor with the ball in his hands causing the travel. If he would have let the ball hit the floor causing the try to be unsuccessful then no travel.

Think this through for a second. Do all tries end by hitting the floor or with a dead ball?

[johnsonboys03]

by rule yes

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

there is a comma in there... The try ends ewhen the throw is successful, when it is CERTAIN the thrown ball is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

The motion that preceeds the release of the ball and then the landing I would believe is where the violation comes from. If he wouldn't have fumbled the ball and did the same thing, it would be a travel. So the fumble shouldn't mean anything.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying if the player fumbles the try, it would still be a travel if he catches it and lands? The fumble absolutely means everything here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

Taken literally, this could lead to some interesting situations....A1 jumps, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 lands. This rule, taken alone, would mean that A1 traveled regardless of who subsequently touches the ball.

In fact, try this one....A1 jumps, B1 blocks A1's try before A1 released te ball the ball. A1 lands. This rule, taken alone, would mean that A1 traveled.

The point....this rule assumes it is not complicated by other actions such as a fumble, a blocked shot, or who knows what.

As has been said, a blocked shot or a fumble changes everything. A1 is now a player gaining control of a loose ball.

Imagine this one....

A1 having used their dribble establishes a pivot foot. A1 fumbles the ball. A1 takes 5 steps in order to get the ball. A1 again establishes a piviot foot in the new location. Has A1 violated at any point along the way? No. A1 can not travel while not holding the ball (player control).