Travel? Loss of Possession?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by CDurham

The case play is 4.44.3 A. This has to do with dropping the ball to the floor. In this case the ball was dropped to the floor while a player was in the air and they were the first to touch it after it hit the floor which constituted a dribble. And you cant have a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

My play: the player never dropped the ball to the floor. He simply came back down with the ball after the fumble while he was mid air.

I was using the case play to give us some guidance. There is some similarities in the two. Both have the player intentionally losing control. In the case play it wasn't a violation until the ball touched the floor and the player was the first too touch it. I would say the same would apply here. Since he gained control of it before he or the ball touched the floor, I've got nothing.

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by rwest

There is no rule support that I know of that says a player can't INTENTIONALLY lose control of the ball while in the air. The case play that I sited above says its only a violation if the ball touches the floor and the player is the first too touch it. Again the case play isn't a 100% similar to the OP but it is close enough in my mind to give us some guidance. If the player intentionally loses control but regains it before he and the ball touches the floor I still have nothing.

I see your point now I think. Your saying, in my words: A1 jumps into the air but intentionally for whatever reason loses the ball or lets go of the ball. He then recovers it and lands. Is this correct?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by CDurham

I see your point now I think. Your saying, in my words: A1 jumps into the air but intentionally for whatever reason loses the ball or lets go of the ball. He then recovers it and lands. Is this correct?

You are correct.

[Adam]

1. A1 throws a lob pass towards A2.
2. A2 doesn't see the pass and cuts towards the basket.
3. A1 runs to retrieve pass before it hits the floor.

Call?

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by rwest

You are correct.

But a fumble is unintentionally. Therefore how can he be able to land and it be legal if the so called "fumble action" was intentional?

[johnsonboys03]

NFHS..... rule4-41 art. 3 and 4. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

rule 4-21 A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips fro from the players grasp.

So using all these rules I would say that if the player dribbled and then shot he definitely established a pivot foot. He then did the motion that habitually preceded the release of the ball. But because the try was not deemed unsuccessful do to it not becoming dead or hitting the floor he would have placed the pivot foot back on the floor with the ball in his hands causing the travel. If he would have let the ball hit the floor causing the try to be unsuccessful then no travel.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

They're travels for different reasons. In the case play, it's a travel for lifting the pivot foot before starting a dribble.

In the OP (assuming purposeful release) it's a travel for jumping and returning to the floor with the ball.

It could have been considered an illegal dribble under the old case play, but the case play for the player throwing the ball in the air and moving before catching it (no bounce) declares it a travel now.

SUppose this happend on a jump stop. The dribble ended when the player gathered the ball. He then jumps off one foot. He loses control momentarily and regains it before he comes down on both feet. This is not a travel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

NFHS..... rule4-41 art. 3 and 4. The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. The try ends when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Rule 4-44 art. 3 after coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for the goal.

rule 4-21 A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips fro from the players grasp.

So using all these rules I would say that if the player dribbled and then shot he definitely established a pivot foot. He then did the motion that habitually preceded the release of the ball. But because the try was not deemed unsuccessful do to it not becoming dead or hitting the floor he would have placed the pivot foot back on the floor with the ball in his hands causing the travel. If he would have let the ball hit the floor causing the try to be unsuccessful then no travel.

Think this through for a second. Do all tries end by hitting the floor or with a dead ball?

[johnsonboys03]

by rule yes

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

SUppose this happend on a jump stop. The dribble ended when the player gathered the ball. He then jumps off one foot. He loses control momentarily and regains it before he comes down on both feet. This is not a travel.

Look at it this way, if the play would have been legal without the momentary release of the ball, it's legal.

If it would have been illegal without the momentary release of the ball, it's still illegal.

This all assumes intentional release, a fumble is a different animal of course.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

by rule yes

Really? So A1 makes a try for goal.
It hits the rim, and B1 gets the rebound.

Knowing that player or team control do not exist during a try, are you still saying the try is still ongoing after B1 gets the rebound?

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by rwest

SUppose this happend on a jump stop. The dribble ended when the player gathered the ball. He then jumps off one foot (pivot). He loses control momentarily and regains it before he comes down on both feet (simultaneously). This is not a travel.

Correct, as described this is a legal jump stop regardless of the fumble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

by rule yes

The point of that rule is that a "try" ends when the ball hits the floor. IOW, if A1 launches a shot from half court just before the horn, the basket cannot count if it bounces in.
The same holds true in the case of an offensive violation or player control foul.

[johnsonboys03]

there is a comma in there... The try ends ewhen the throw is successful, when it is CERTAIN the thrown ball is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

The motion that preceeds the release of the ball and then the landing I would believe is where the violation comes from. If he wouldn't have fumbled the ball and did the same thing, it would be a travel. So the fumble shouldn't mean anything.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

there is a comma in there... The try ends ewhen the throw is successful, when it is CERTAIN the thrown ball is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

The motion that preceeds the release of the ball and then the landing I would believe is where the violation comes from. If he wouldn't have fumbled the ball and did the same thing, it would be a travel. So the fumble shouldn't mean anything.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying if the player fumbles the try, it would still be a travel if he catches it and lands? The fumble absolutely means everything here.