Fouling airborne shooter when ball is dead... ?

[PSidbury]

Per 4-19-1: A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

So, if the airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting and has released (or tapped) the ball for a try but has not returned to the floor, could someone please give me an example of a foul occuring on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead ?

Another foul elsewhere ?
But, if the ball is dead then why and how do points count if the airborne shooter's try goes in the goal ?
That seems to conflict with the pedestrian definition of "dead".

I feel the answer is going to be a "Duh... of course" or "I'll know it when I see it" type answer, but right now it is eluding me.

Thanks,
Paul

[Adam]

A dunk. Or any shot which goes through the basket prior to the shooter landing.

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A dunk. Or any shot which goes through the basket prior to the shooter landing.

Yeah, I was thinking dunk.
Specifically, I was thinking about a dunk with traffic under the basket which leaves the shooter hanging on the rim to prevent injury to himself... and while he is hanging he is fouled.
In this new scenario, would you call a shooting foul based on the definition that the shooter has yet to return to the floor, albeit hanging on rim for a second or two after the made basket?

Thanks,
Paul

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

Yeah, I was thinking dunk.
Specifically, I was thinking about a dunk with traffic under the basket which leaves the shooter hanging on the rim to prevent injury to himself... and while he is hanging he is fouled.
In this new scenario, would you call a shooting foul based on the definition that the shooter has yet to return to the floor, albeit hanging on rim for a second or two after the made basket?

Thanks,
Paul

Hanging isn't necessary. Just like any airborne shooter, he has to be allowed to land. If the defense undercuts him, it's a shooting foul. I've had a defender come in and intentionally foul the "dunker" before he landed.

And yes, assuming the hanging was legitimate and not a technical foul.

That brings an interesting thought to mind; the possibility of a T for hanging on the rim followed by a shooting foul on the defense for undercutting him as he tries to land.

It would be the rare case (in NFHS rules) where the T shots would be followed by the shot for the shooting foul.

[Scrapper1]

Although I've never seen it called, there could be an elbow violation on the offense while the try is in the air. This causes the ball to become dead, however, the shooter has not yet returned to the floor.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Although I've never seen it called, there could be an elbow violation on the offense while the try is in the air. This causes the ball to become dead, however, the shooter has not yet returned to the floor.

I think this is one of the questions I missed on the exam. Would you, or anyone, be so kinds as to cite where this is covered in the rule book?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That brings an interesting thought to mind; the possibility of a T for hanging on the rim followed by a shooting foul on the defense for undercutting him as he tries to land.

It would be the rare case (in NFHS rules) where the T shots would be followed by the shot for the shooting foul.

Interesting case. I'd propose that any contact foul on a shooter that occurs after the shooter has after sucessfully dunked the ball and has hung on the rim long enough to get a T will likely be intentional or flagrant.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

Per 4-19-1: A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

So, if the airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting and has released (or tapped) the ball for a try but has not returned to the floor, could someone please give me an example of a foul occuring on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead ?

Another foul elsewhere ?
But, if the ball is dead then why and how do points count if the airborne shooter's try goes in the goal ?
That seems to conflict with the pedestrian definition of "dead".

I feel the answer is going to be a "Duh... of course" or "I'll know it when I see it" type answer, but right now it is eluding me.

Thanks,
Paul

A1 jumps and tips the ball toward Team A's basket. While A1 is still airborne, B1 makes contact with the ball while the ball is in the cylinder, immediately after B1 touches the ball and before A1 returns to the floor, B2 fouls A1 on his arm.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

Per 4-19-1: A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

So, if the airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting and has released (or tapped) the ball for a try but has not returned to the floor, could someone please give me an example of a foul occuring on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead ?

4.19.6 SITUATION A: B1 obtains a legal position in A1’s path before A1 becomes airborne. A1 jumps and releases the ball on a try for goal. Before returning to the floor, airborne shooter A1 charges into B1. (a) Before the foul by A1, B2 commits basket interference; or (b) after the foul on A1, B2 slaps the ball on its downward flight. RULING: In (a), both the violation and the foul are penalized.The basket interference by B2 causes the ball to become dead immediately. The violation is penalized by awarding the two points. The player-control foul on A1 is also charged. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. A defensive-goaltending or basket-interference violation committed prior to a player-control foul does not contradict the general statement that when a playercontrol foul occurs that player cannot score. In the case of a defensive violation, it is the violation which results in awarding the score. In (b), the ball becomes dead and the try ends immediately when the player-control foul on A1 occurs. The action of B2 is ignored as goaltending cannot occur after the try has ended. Theball is awarded to Team B for a throw-in from a designated spot out of bounds closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-1; 6-7-4; 6-7-9 Exception; 7-5-4a; 9-11)


NOTE:
There was a change made to the exception listed under 6-7 a few years ago. It now seems that the ball remains live until the airborne shooter returns to the floor OR the try or tap ends. I don't agree with that and have a problem with the change, but that's what it says.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NOTE:
There was a change made to the exception listed under 6-7 a few years ago. It now seems that the ball remains live until the airborne shooter returns to the floor OR the try or tap ends. I don't agree with that and have a problem with the change, but that's what it says.

Really? The ball has alway become dead when the ball passes through the net or when an infraction occurs (other than a foul committed against the shooter).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NOTE:
There was a change made to the exception listed under 6-7 a few years ago. It now seems that the ball remains live until the airborne shooter returns to the floor OR the try or tap ends. I don't agree with that and have a problem with the change, but that's what it says.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Really? The ball has alway become dead when the ball passes through the net or when an infraction occurs (other than a foul committed against the shooter).

Wrong part, Camron.

I'm not questioning the ball becoming dead following a made goal. I have a problem with it remaining live until the airborne shooter returns to the floor. Why does the position of a player (with regard to being in contact with the floor or airborne) have anything to do with the ball being live or dead? It doesn't and this was a very poor editorial change when slipped in a few seasons ago.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Wrong part, Camron.

I'm not questioning the ball becoming dead following a made goal. I have a problem with it remaining live until the airborne shooter returns to the floor. Why does the position of a player (with regard to being in contact with the floor or airborne) have anything to do with the ball being live or dead? It doesn't and this was a very poor editorial change when slipped in a few seasons ago.

This could have some interesting ramifications, too.

The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: