Swinging Elbows

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

What stipulates where the defenders' nose belongs or doesn't belong?

It belongs on his face. If he sticks his face outside of his vertical plance and within the opponent's vertical space, I'd say his face doesn't belong there.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

For NFHS, Rule 4-23-1.

Yep ... the nose that gets there first, belongs

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

It belongs on his face. If he sticks his face outside of his vertical plance and within the opponent's vertical space, I'd say his face doesn't belong there.

I like this word. May I use it?

Oh, and can you describe a horizontal plance?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

Yep ... the nose that gets there first, belongs

As BktBallRef alludes to, if B1 leans over A1, who pivots elbows out in the process of straightening up or even squaring up, it's likely going to be a no-call unless A1's elbow is somehow damaged.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As BktBallRef alludes to, if B1 leans over A1, who pivots elbows out in the process of straightening up or even squaring up, it's likely going to be a no-call unless A1's elbow is somehow damaged.

Perhaps true, but based on the OP, I was going on the presumption that we have swinging elbows VS elbows moving via normal pivoting ...

[AHSAA_Ref]

My President says if the elbows do not move faster than the torso, it is not a violation or foul.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

if B1 leans over A1, who pivots elbows out in the process of straightening up or even squaring up, it's likely going to be a no-call unless A1's elbow is somehow damaged.

Since this thread started with reference to the NCAA rules, I just want to remind everyone that the statement above is FALSE in NCAA games.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Since this thread started with reference to the NCAA rules, I just want to remind everyone that the statement above is FALSE in NCAA games.

So under what circumstance is a no-call acceptable when elbows make contact with face?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref

My President says if the elbows do not move faster than the torso, it is not a violation or foul.

Your President probably said that because the rules told him to say that. Just saying...

NFHS rule 4-24-8(a) and NCAA rule 4-36-7(a). Note though that both of those rules also go on to say that you can still call a foul or violation if you deem that the aggression(speed and vigor) of the elbow swing could cause injury if contact was made.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Oh, and can you describe a horizontal plance?

He not only spelled it wrong, everybody knows most plants grow vertically.

"You plant the little seeds in the rich brown soil and watch them shoot up toward the sun and the sky." **





**Oliver Wendell Douglas

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So under what circumstance is a no-call acceptable when elbows make contact with face?

Only when the elbow is NOT moving.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Only when the elbow is NOT moving.

Wouldn't that be the face contacting the elbow, not vice versa?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref

My President says if the elbows do not move faster than the torso, it is not a violation or foul.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Your President probably said that because the rules told him to say that. Just saying...
...

It's never a foul?

If A1 has the ball face level with his elbows out and pivots his entire body and his elbow contacts B1, who has established and maintained a legal guarding position, it's not a foul? Nevvver? (in my Bill Maher squeaky voice).

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Wouldn't that be the face contacting the elbow, not vice versa?

Yes, that's correct. That's the only time elbow contact above the shoulders is incidental. I'm sorry if I made it more confusing than it has to be.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by AHSAA_Ref

My President says if the elbows do not move faster than the torso, it is not a violation or foul.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's never a foul?

If A1 has the ball face level with his elbows out and pivots his entire body and his elbow contacts B1, who has established and maintained a legal guarding position, it's not a foul? Nevvver? (in my Bill Maher squeaky voice).

The part in red is why you're . AHSAA_Ref never mentioned contact. If a player's elbows are not moving faster than the torso, it's not excessive (by definition). Therefore, no violation or foul.

And even if there is contact, NFHS does not mandate that it must be a foul. At the high school level, officials are still allowed to exercise judgment about whether it was incidental or not.