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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 24, 2006, 09:25am
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A1 is receives a pass. B1 crowds A1 to the point that A1 needs to lean back with his feet spread apart to protect the ball. B1 crowds even further so that he is straddled over A1 leg. A1 attempts to stand upright and in doing so, his elbow hits B1 in the nose. The swing was not a deliberate act, but rather more a natural motion to get back upright. You could have...

Foul on A1
Foul on B1
No call.

At the time this happened, I had no call. My initial thought was that B1 was in the vertical space of A1 and could have been called for a foul. One of my partners was very upset that I didn't call an offensive foul on A1. I did have to stop the play to let B1 leave the floor.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 24, 2006, 09:36am
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Judgment call on the elbow. If ya thought it was deliberate or impeding on B's space, PC. If A is simply returning to his space, I got nuttin'.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 24, 2006, 10:59am
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had one similar

last nite, girls game. Post and defender are chicken/hand fighting in the post...defender has her hands in top position trying to move around the post, post moves her hands back up and in doing so at the same time the defender is moving hits the defender in the nose. I am literally 3 feet from the play. I stop play for the defender to leave, listen to the normal stuff from a coach about why it wasn't a foul. I told him I had incidental contact so no foul. Next time down the floor the coach trys to tell me that she got elbowed LOL...even though he was 60 feet away and looking through bodies...wow...
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Old Sat Feb 25, 2006, 01:28am
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Talking Re: had one similar

Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
Next time down the floor the coach trys to tell me that she got elbowed LOL...even though he was 60 feet away and looking through bodies...wow...
But of course! Don't you realize that all coaches have both the visual acuity of a raptor and xray vision?
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 25, 2006, 07:36am
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I'd say it's a foul when B1 makes contacts with A1's legs (he's in his cylinder and out of defencive position) but you could also have a double foul, B1 for blocking and A1 for elbowing

but afterall it's a judgment call, but I'd say call the Defensive foul first, if elbows still makes contact, make it a double personal foul (if you deam it as an intentional elbow, unsportmanslike)

that's how I think I would call it anyway (and that's fiba=no violation for swinging elbows)
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2006, 11:46pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Damian
A1 is receives a pass. B1 crowds A1 to the point that A1 needs to lean back with his feet spread apart to protect the ball. B1 crowds even further so that he is straddled over A1 leg. A1 attempts to stand upright and in doing so, his elbow hits B1 in the nose. The swing was not a deliberate act, but rather more a natural motion to get back upright. You could have...

Foul on A1
Foul on B1
No call.

At the time this happened, I had no call. My initial thought was that B1 was in the vertical space of A1 and could have been called for a foul. One of my partners was very upset that I didn't call an offensive foul on A1. I did have to stop the play to let B1 leave the floor.

This is a foul by B1. B1 violated A1's cylinder of verticality.

MTD, Sr.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 27, 2006, 12:06am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Damian
A1 is receives a pass. B1 crowds A1 to the point that A1 needs to lean back with his feet spread apart to protect the ball. B1 crowds even further so that he is straddled over A1 leg. A1 attempts to stand upright and in doing so, his elbow hits B1 in the nose. The swing was not a deliberate act, but rather more a natural motion to get back upright. You could have...

Foul on A1
Foul on B1
No call.

At the time this happened, I had no call. My initial thought was that B1 was in the vertical space of A1 and could have been called for a foul. One of my partners was very upset that I didn't call an offensive foul on A1. I did have to stop the play to let B1 leave the floor.

This is a foul by B1. B1 violated A1's cylinder of verticality.

MTD, Sr.
This is not a foul by B1. Damian's description indicates that B1 reached this position without making contact with the opponent.

There is no such thing as a cylinder of verticality in the NFHS rules book.

Please explain with the NFHS rules why you believe that this is a foul by B1.


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Old Mon Feb 27, 2006, 03:04am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Damian
A1 is receives a pass. B1 crowds A1 to the point that A1 needs to lean back with his feet spread apart to protect the ball. B1 crowds even further so that he is straddled over A1 leg. A1 attempts to stand upright and in doing so, his elbow hits B1 in the nose. The swing was not a deliberate act, but rather more a natural motion to get back upright. You could have...


This is a foul by B1. B1 violated A1's cylinder of verticality.



This is not a foul by B1. Damian's description indicates that B1 reached this position without making contact with the opponent.

There is no such thing as a cylinder of verticality in the NFHS rules book.

Please explain with the NFHS rules why you believe that this is a foul by B1.


Rule 4-45-VERTICALITY
Verticality applies to a legal position.The basic components of the principle of verticality are:
ART 2: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane which is a foul.



Also, from the POE's in the 2003-04 rule book:

A player has the right to any spot on the floor he or she may get to legally. To obtain or maintain a legal rebounding position, a player may not:
- extend shoulders, hips or knees, or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in in a position other than vertical, so that the opponent's freedom of movement is hindered when contact with the arm or elbows occur.
- bend his or her body into an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
- violate the principle of verticality.
- better his or her position by other than legal means.


The same principles apply to a player with the ball and the defender guarding him/her. Both players are bound equally by these principles.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 27th, 2006 at 03:06 AM]
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 27, 2006, 03:34am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Rule 4-45-VERTICALITY
Verticality applies to a legal position.The basic components of the principle of verticality are:
ART 2: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane which is a foul.



Also, from the POE's in the 2003-04 rule book:

A player has the right to any spot on the floor he or she may get to legally. To obtain or maintain a legal rebounding position, a player may not:
- extend shoulders, hips or knees, or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in in a position other than vertical, so that the opponent's freedom of movement is hindered when contact with the arm or elbows occur.
- bend his or her body into an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
- violate the principle of verticality.
- better his or her position by other than legal means.


The same principles apply to a player with the ball and the defender guarding him/her. Both players are bound equally by these principles.

So which of these principles did the defender break?

1. Did he use his belly or lower body to cause contact? Unclear from the OP, but he certainly could have just been very close without contact.
2. Did he push or displace his opponent? Same as #1.
3. Did he extend his arms, elbows, or knees in a non vertical position and contact the opponent? Nope. The opponent's elbow contacted him.

It seems to me that when the offensive player leaned backwards all the defender did was fill that spot on the floor. Now the offensive player bent back into that original position and contacted the vertical defender.

So I don't see how MTD can positively declare that this is a foul by B1.

If B1 merely moved closer, closer, and closer without contact and moved into the area A1 vacated by leaning back, then the foul may well have been by A1 in the original play.

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 27, 2006, 07:31am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Rule 4-45-VERTICALITY
Verticality applies to a legal position.The basic components of the principle of verticality are:
ART 2: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane which is a foul.



Also, from the POE's in the 2003-04 rule book:

A player has the right to any spot on the floor he or she may get to legally. To obtain or maintain a legal rebounding position, a player may not:
- extend shoulders, hips or knees, or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in in a position other than vertical, so that the opponent's freedom of movement is hindered when contact with the arm or elbows occur.
- bend his or her body into an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
- violate the principle of verticality.
- better his or her position by other than legal means.


The same principles apply to a player with the ball and the defender guarding him/her. Both players are bound equally by these principles.

So which of these principles did the defender break?

1. Did he use his belly or lower body to cause contact?

3. Did he extend his arms, elbows, or knees in a non vertical position and contact the opponent?


1) Yes. He used his lower body to cause the contact by being inside A1's vertical plane when A1 moved within his vertical plane.

2) Yup. B1 extended his knee, and accompanying leg, into A1's vertical space and used that position to both "hinder" and "hold" A1 from performing legal movements allowable by rule and occuring totally within A1's vertical space.

That's the way it sounds like to me from Damian's description, anywhoooo....it could be a foul on B1.

Btw, B1 filled A1's legally attained spot on the floor in the air over that spot, not on the floor. That's no different than B1 holding his arms over top of A1's head, and A1 then jumping straight up into those arms. B1 was still within A1's vertical plane, the way I read the description.
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Old Mon Feb 27, 2006, 09:34am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Rule 4-45-VERTICALITY
Verticality applies to a legal position.The basic components of the principle of verticality are:
ART 2: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane which is a foul.



Also, from the POE's in the 2003-04 rule book:

A player has the right to any spot on the floor he or she may get to legally. To obtain or maintain a legal rebounding position, a player may not:
- extend shoulders, hips or knees, or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in in a position other than vertical, so that the opponent's freedom of movement is hindered when contact with the arm or elbows occur.
- bend his or her body into an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
- violate the principle of verticality.
- better his or her position by other than legal means.


The same principles apply to a player with the ball and the defender guarding him/her. Both players are bound equally by these principles.

So which of these principles did the defender break?

1. Did he use his belly or lower body to cause contact?

3. Did he extend his arms, elbows, or knees in a non vertical position and contact the opponent?


1) Yes. He used his lower body to cause the contact by being inside A1's vertical plane when A1 moved within his vertical plane.

2) Yup. B1 extended his knee, and accompanying leg, into A1's vertical space and used that position to both "hinder" and "hold" A1 from performing legal movements allowable by rule and occuring totally within A1's vertical space.

That's the way it sounds like to me from Damian's description, anywhoooo....it could be a foul on B1.

Btw, B1 filled A1's legally attained spot on the floor in the air over that spot, not on the floor. That's no different than B1 holding his arms over top of A1's head, and A1 then jumping straight up into those arms. B1 was still within A1's vertical plane, the way I read the description.


JR:

Dang it, I am running up quite a tab with you because you are doing all of my work for me. Thanks for your help. The good thing is that I will be able to deduct your consultation fees in my Schedule C for 2006 on Line 17 for Legal and Professional Services.

MTD, Sr.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Feb 27th, 2006 at 07:18 PM]
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Ohio High School Athletic Association
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 27, 2006, 01:22pm
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The problem here is you have A1 being wider to get the ball - the vertical plane is from the shoulders down and up you can not set your feet 6 feet apart claim that vertical area and B1 standing over the leg of A1
If A1 is legal B1 is not legal so - you now have no call or a foul on B1 when there is contact, because B1 does not hav a legal garding position.
Now if the elbow is violent - or deliberate all bets are off.

This is a now win situation - you are going to make someone made so " If a foul occured and nobody saw it but the referee...."
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 27, 2006, 02:14pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick82358
The problem here is you have A1 being wider to get the ball - the vertical plane is from the shoulders down and up you can not set your feet 6 feet apart claim that vertical area and B1 standing over the leg of A1
Am I missing something? Where does it say in the original post that A1 had assumed an unnatural stance? It just says that A1 leaned back with his feet spread apart.

The vertical plane is from your legs up. If it was from the shoulders down, it would be legal to jump up at an angle instead of having to go straight up. If the player with the ball has a legal position and then goes straight up, I can't see where you can possibly call a foul on that player if contact occurs.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 27, 2006, 05:25pm
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How do you have a vertical plane when you are not vertical?

A1 WAS in an unnatural position legs spread and leaning back and is not entitled to the space above and outstretched leg.

This is no different than a player attempting to draw a charge or set a screen by sticking out an arm or leg.

They have protection above their vertical torso extended and not some protective bubble surrounding their entire body, regardless of having outstretched limbs or a diagonal orientation.

Vertical means vertical.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 27, 2006, 05:31pm
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No I gues I miss interpreted the leaning back

The point being that A1 if is not in an unnatural position B1 can not have established a legal guarding position because if he is over A1's leg he a has violated verticality.
So how could you have a foul on A1 unless it were flagrant or intentional?
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