Swinging Elbows
 

Watching the North Carolina and Vandy Game. Vandy Guard has the ball near division line and is holding the ball and swings his elbow and it hits the NC defender in nose. It was just a graze.

Ruling: Intentional Foul as a minimum call and could have been flagrant if more than a graze.

Question: Same Ruling in High School games??

Impossible to say without seeing the play. Anything from a no call to a flagrant.

In NCAA beginning this year, any moving elbow which contacts an opponent above the shoulders is a minimum of an intentional foul. The intentional is for contact that result from "total body movement" (a normal pivot, for example). If contact anywhere on the opponent results from excessive swinging of the elbows, then it is a flagrant foul.

So there's no chance of incidental? Even if the defender sticks his nose in where it doesn't belong?

Incidental is a choice. But a common foul is not.

The "incidental" elbows I saw last year resulted in ejections, if incidental means, "I swung my elbow, knocked you on your *** even though I didn't know you were there.

No it is not the same at the high school level. The NCAA wants certain kinds of fouls called if contact is with the head. HS has not made these provisions about calling an intentional foul with all contact of that nature.

Peace

...yet. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a similar edict in a year or two. ;)

Is this the same game as discussed here:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...your-call.html

In any event, the NCAA and FED rules are different.

My understanding is that if the elbow is moving, then incidental is not an option. Because of this, we have been pre-gaming that if a defender "sticks his nose in where it doesn't belong", we grab any initial contact as a common foul on the defender. Get those little guys out of there, and there's less chance for that big guy to pivot and get hit with the intentional.

my take
 

NCAA redefined elbows above the shoulders. NFHS did not. THe play in the UNC-Vandy game could have just been a player control foul in High School.

I wouldn't either.

Peace

+1

This has been standard in each pregrame I've been involved with this year.

What stipulates where the defenders' nose belongs or doesn't belong?

For NFHS, Rule 4-23-1.