Swinging of Elbows

[WI REF]

I had a boys varsity game last Friday night. Team A was getting beat quite badly by halftime. With a few minutes gone in the second half here was the situation: Team A shot the ball, B rebounded the ball about midway up the lane. Most of the players were heading to the other end of the court. One of the players from team A was about two feet from the rebounder B. He also was starting to turn to go and play defense. For some reason player B decided that he needed to start swinging his elbows excessively from side to side. I told him (player B) to get the elbows down , in which he did and started up court. Here is where it gets interesting. Coach from team A starts to yell that it's an automatic T, because of the excessive swinging of his elbows. He tells me that it is a rule in the book and should be enforced. As I pass him I say that I warned the player, figuring there wasn't a player near to him that he could have caused injury to. This didn't seem to please the coach from A. The rule reads as such: 10-3-8g "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: g-Excessively swing his/her arm(s) even though there is no contact with an opponent". Was I wrong not to have called it an automatic 'T'??
I would like to know some of your opinions on this situation.
PS. My partner was going from trail to lead and it wasn't his call. He did say after the game that he probably woul dhave called it the same way. Final score was B- 73, A- 51.

[Bart Tyson]

judgement, in your judgement it warranted a warning. Good job.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by WI REF
One of the players from team A was about two feet from the rebounder B. He also was starting to turn to go and play defense. For some reason player B decided that he needed to start swinging his elbows excessively from side to side. Final score was B- 73, A- 51.

Really would have to have been there to see it. Not having seen it, I would say if A was 2 feet away he is well within range of being hit by the elbow and I would call a T. Then again, if you read my past post on elbows you will see that I have zero tolerance for them.

[DrakeM]

I have called "T's" on this play three times this year.
All have been blatantly obvious.
The first time, the offensive player didn't like the fact that he was being guarded by a defender and flashed both elbows right at the kids face!
Second one was much the same. Coach says to me "he's just clearing out!" "How am I supposed to teach it?"
Well Coach, don't "clear out" at a kid's HEAD!
Third time, players diving on the floor after a loose ball.
After jump ball is called, player who is laying on another one, fires a elbow at the kid's head! I'm standing over the two players at the time, and the kid underneath didn't do anything to provoke it.
Sometimes you wonder what is going through their brains!

[Brian Watson]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Sometimes you wonder what is going through their brains! [/B]

Testosterone Overload....Most of us (I hope Jules never had this problem) have been there.

[BigDave]

This is a T every time in my book. Contact is irrelevent. It's one thing to rebound the ball and get ready to kick it out, but flying elbows will get someone hurt and potentially cause a huge rumble on the court.

If a kid throws a roundhouse punch (like Shaq) and misses, do you let it go because there was no contact?

[Dave Brost]

THIS IS A SITUATION WHERE YOU TRY TO AVOID THE SITUATION OF HAVING TO GIVE A "T", BUT YOU WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME EXPLAINING IF YOU HAD GIVEN THE "T". (BOOK RULE) I THINK THAT IN HINDSIGHT, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF GIVING THE "T", AND THE TEAM A COACH MIGHT HAVE ARGUED SOME, BUT NOT AS MUCH AS TEAM B COACH, WHO IS ALREADY GETTING WAXED. YOU PROBABLY ADDED INSULT TO INJURY.

[Larks]

I know NCAA may be different but I was watching the UC / Houston game the other night. After a rebound, I think it was UC's Donald Little bring the bows up and not necessarily swing them but more move on his pivot foot to clear some space. Tweet...offensive...actually, I think the lead called PC. Anyone see this?

So, within NF w/o contact should we call a T or simply give a warning? You know preventive officiating.

With contact like Little did in the example above....do we have the PC option or offensive foul option or should we throw the T

With contact to the chops of the defender...I go with the T.

Comments?

NF please.

Thanks

Larks - Veteran in training

[BktBallRef]

I agree with Dave.
Team A is getting waxed.
The elbows were obvious.
You probably should have called it.

Now, had the sitch been...
Close game.
Maybe 1 or 2 swings.
Nobody around.
I would warn.

But in your case, I would have called it.

[Bart Tyson]

good point about team B being the better team. I don't think you can go wrong in call a T.

[WI REF]

Thanks guys for all the comments. After thinking about it hard and long over the weekend this is what I came up with. I decided that if this ever happens again and is a definate 'excessive swinging of the elbows', then it will be an automatic T. It sounds like the best thing would have been to go ahead and give that T and live with coach B who is winning by a big margin. After all, how can you argue with the call if it's right out of the rule book. I know that score should and did not make the difference on whether I called it or not. Dave Brost did have it pretty much right on in his comments. Thanks Dave !!!
I've also decided not to beat myself up over this non-call and move on. There will be other games and situations in which more questions will come up, I'm sure of that.

[zebraman]

Larks,

Without contact requires judgment. I normally go with a "T" rather than a warning...but it depends on how vicious the swinging is.

IMHO, with contact you really can't call a "T" unless you think the kid was being unsportsmanlike (because it's a live ball situation). With contact you either call a PC or perhaps could sell an intentional foul. If the defenders head goes flying off (or something to that effect), you could call flagrant if you thought the offensive player intended harm.

Z

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Larks
I know NCAA may be different but I was watching the UC / Houston game the other night. After a rebound, I think it was UC's Donald Little bring the bows up and not necessarily swing them but more move on his pivot foot to clear some space. Tweet...offensive...actually, I think the lead called PC. Anyone see this?

I didn't see the play, but it fits into my response to the original post.

If the player was swinging the elbows -- that's a T.

If the player was rotating his torso with the elows extended, that's not a T (but would be a PC foul with contact).

I see more of the latter than the former -- and fans // coaches (some of each) want it to be a T.

[RecRef]

[/B][/QUOTE]


If the player was rotating his torso with the elows extended, that's not a T ([/B][/QUOTE]

Are you talking NF or NCAA? Becuse in NF it is a T.

[bard]

The rule is 4-24-8 in NF. "It is not legal to swing arms and elbows excessively. This occurs when:
a. Arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot.
b. The aggressiveness with which the arms and elbows are swung could cause injury to another player if contacted.
Using this description as a basis, an official will promptly and unhesitatingly call such action with arms and elbows a technical foul."

This one seems pretty clear to me. If such action could cause injury, it's a T. I believe there's a high probability of injury in these circumstances, and I'm taking a zero tolerance approach. It's a T.

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If the player was rotating his torso with the elows extended, that's not a T (
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Are you talking NF or NCAA? Becuse in NF it is a T.