Inadvertent Kick on Throw In

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, you consider it the same as the thrower dribbling the ball OOB. Would you call an illegal second dribble on a thrower if they dribbled the ball, caught it and dribbled it again?

Case book play 9.2.2SitD

Apples and stereos.

Of course I wouldn't call an illegal dribble. Fundamental #5, dribbling or traveling rules do not apply during a throw-in, jump ball, or free throw.

It says nothing of kicked ball rules, and your post mentioned the player intentionally kicking the ball in as his throw-in pass.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Apples and stereos.

Of course I wouldn't call an illegal dribble. Fundamental #5, dribbling or traveling rules do not apply during a throw-in, jump ball, or free throw.

It says nothing of kicked ball rules, and your post mentioned the player intentionally kicking the ball in as his throw-in pass.

I agree with Snaqwells, if what Jurassic said is what he meant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with Snaqwells, if what Jurassic said is what he meant.

Still trying to redeem myself after that serious brain fart yesterday.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with Snaqwells, if what Jurassic said is what he meant.

What's your opinion of case book play of 9.2.2SitB(a) then where we're directed to re-set if the ball is fumbled forward? It doesn't say how much forward or how far forward or whether the ball went forwards in-bounds or not, just that we should re-set. Would you treat an inadvertently kicked ball differently? I wouldn't. And if you would, I'd appreciate a cite.

NFHS rules. Not sure if it's definitively covered under NCAA rules.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What's your opinion of case book play of 9.2.2SitB(a) then where we're directed to re-set if the ball is fumbled forward? It doesn't say how much forward or how far forward or whether the ball went forwards in-bounds or not, just that we should re-set. Would you treat an inadvertently kicked ball differently? I wouldn't. And if you would, I'd appreciate a cite.

NFHS rules. Not sure if it's definitively covered under NCAA rules.

Is that the right cite? I can't seem to find it in my 2010-2011 case book.

There is 9.2.1B (a), but here, it's not a fumble, it's a muff. And, that's completely different.

9.2.1B (b) is a fumble -- and a violation, but not really relevant to the play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Apples and stereos.

Of course I wouldn't call an illegal dribble. Fundamental #5, dribbling or traveling rules do not apply during a throw-in, jump ball, or free throw.

It says nothing of kicked ball rules, and your post mentioned the player intentionally kicking the ball in as his throw-in pass.

Throw-in violations are listed under 9-2. See kicking the ball by the thrower in there anywhere?

It's a matter of intent imo, and that's why I made that statement. Did the thrower intend to throw-in the ball via kicking it to a team mate in-bounds? if so, I don't think that's a violation under either NFHS or NCAA rules.

Or was the kick inadvertant, and this should be treated as a fumble as in case book play 9.2.1SitB(a) where the ball is fumbled forward?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Did the thrower intend to throw-in the ball via kicking it to a team mate in-bounds? if so, I don't think that's a violation under either NFHS or NCAA rules.

WHAT??? Intentionally kicking the ball is NOT a violation???

Is the thrower-in a player? Yes. Did that player intentionally kick the ball? Yes. That's a violation. Not a throw-in violation under 9-2, perhaps; but definitely a kicking violation under 9-4.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

WHAT??? Intentionally kicking the ball is NOT a violation???

Is the thrower-in a player? Yes. Did that player intentionally kick the ball? Yes. That's a violation. Not a throw-in violation under 9-2, perhaps; but definitely a kicking violation under 9-4.

If dribbling and traveling rules don't apply OOB, what makes you think that deliberately kicking the ball should? Especially when none of those violations are listed as throw-in violations under 9-2? Would you call a thrower for fisting the ball to a teammate in-bounds too?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If dribbling and traveling rules don't apply OOB, what makes you think that deliberately kicking the ball should?

The only reason the dribbling and traveling rules don't apply is that there's a NOTE that specifically tells us they don't apply. Have you found such a note that refers to kicking violations?

Would you call a thrower for fisting the ball to a teammate in-bounds too?

I personally would only call it if the throw-in was closely contested and there was a possibility that the fist might connect with an opponent. But I believe that by rule, it would be a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

1) only reason the dribbling and traveling rules don't apply is that there's a NOTE that specifically tells us they don't apply. Have you found such a note that refers to kicking violations?

2) I personally would only call it if the throw-in was closely contested and there was a possibility that the fist might connect with an opponent. But I believe that by rule, it would be a violation.

Have you found anything under 9.2 that refers to kicking or fisting the ball as being a violation by the thrower? How do I know what the full intent of the Rules Committee was when it came to exceptions to the throw-in rules? Maybe they just didn't have room ...or reason...to list them all.

2) And that leads me to an additional point. Afaik both kicking and fisting the ball were implemented mainly as safety rules(with kicking also giving a defender an advantage not meant by specific rule). They were put in the book to stop an act that could possibly endanger another player. Well, on a throw-in by rule the opponents have to be in-bounds....not OOB. As do the thrower's team mates on a spot throw-in. Team mates can be OOB on an unrestricted end-line throw-in but is there any reason to kick the ball to a team mate standing right next to you? And if the team mate is at the other end of the end line, where's the chance of injury. The safety factor is just not a factor when it comes to the thrower imo.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if the team mate is at the other end of the end line, where's the chance of injury. The safety factor is just not a factor when it comes to the thrower imo.

How bout a shank?

[Adam]

Disagree with the safety factor on the kick; as well as the advantage. It's not soccer. A contested throwin would have the defender in danger if the thrower was allowed to punt the ball. Also, the ability to punt the ball would be a distinct advantage for a tired player or a player with a weaker throwing arm. Bring in your soccer star and have him punt the throwin down court.

If B1 was contesting the throwin and A1 decided to start swinging his elbows to back him off; would you call it? What if A2 started doing it, during the throwin, to clear space for him to receive a pass.

Finally, why is it a violation for B1 to kick the ball "during" the throwin if it's not a violation for A1 to do it?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If dribbling and traveling rules don't apply OOB, what makes you think that deliberately kicking the ball should? Especially when none of those violations are listed as throw-in violations under 9-2? Would you call a thrower for fisting the ball to a teammate in-bounds too?

Yep. I'd also call him for swinging his elbows if he did so.
And you're going to allow him to punt it down the court?

It seems we have what's called an impasse.

Next question, is the rule fundamental #5 the only place that tells us traveling and dribbling rules don't apply to the thrower on a throwin? Or is it written within the rules somewhere?

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Next question, is the rule fundamental #5 the only place that tells us traveling and dribbling rules don't apply to the thrower on a throwin? Or is it written within the rules somewhere?

Correct, if they wanted the thrower to be able to kick the ball then #5 would have included that kicking rule does not apply to the thrower on a throwin.

Me think JR is just stirring a conversation, a good thing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Me think JR is just stirring a conversation, a good thing.

Nope, JR is wondering whether what we're arguing is definitively covered by rule. I'm not sure it is. I'm equally unsure as to whether I'm on the right side of the argument either ..also because I'm unsure if it's definitively covered.