Clock/Time question

[Jurassic Referee]

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

I'm sorry, but the OP reads differently than this, and seems to me to be a relic from the days of lag time. "Just prior to the horn sounding" indicates to me that the horn does indeed sound, immediately after the foul, and therefore the period will be over as soon as the final free throw is completed.

[Jurassic Referee]

I'm sorry also, but I've also got the answer key for that particular test.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm sorry also, but I've also got the answer key for that particular test.

LOL
Whatever you do, don't post it here!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm sorry, but the OP reads differently than this, and seems to me to be a relic from the days of lag time.

Just a comment about this piece: the case play refers to the clock reading 0 minutes and 00 seconds, which does not take tenths into account. The clock could have been stopped with time remaining, which would explain why the horn hadn't sounded. This does not necessarily involve "lag time."

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Just a comment about this piece: the case play refers to the clock reading 0 minutes and 00 seconds, which does not take tenths into account. The clock could have been stopped with time remaining, which would explain why the horn hadn't sounded. This does not necessarily involve "lag time."

But it could involve lag time, so Snaqs could be right.

Nah, you're right!

Though I will point out that the lag time rule and clocks that don't show 10ths of a second are both relics from the same era, and so "the days of lag time" are also the days before 10ths became the norm.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The case play refers to the clock reading 0 minutes and 00 seconds, which does not take tenths into account. The clock could have been stopped with time remaining, which would explain why the horn hadn't sounded.

Make sure that the clock operator has the automatic horn on. If the automatic horn is off, then the buzzer won't sound. In thirty years I've had the 0:00 situation with no horn several times. I always ask the clock operator, "Is the automatic horn on?" If he replies, "No", I ask him to turn it on. In many, but not all cases, the horn sounds, so we don't line up rebounders for the free throw. In a couple of cases the horn didn't sound when the automatic horn was turned on, so we had the rebounders line up during the free throws.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Make sure that the clock operator has the automatic horn on. If the automatic horn is off, then the buzzer won't sound. In thirty years I've had the 0:00 situation with no horn several times. I always ask the clock operator, "Is the automatic horn on?" If he replies, "No", I ask him to turn it on. In many, but not all cases, the horn sounds, so we don't line up rebounders for the free throw. In a couple of cases the horn didn't sound when the automatic horn was turned on, so we had the rebounders line up during the free throws.

Why would you ever want to turn this off?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Why would you ever want to turn this off?

Maybe it was off for some other sport.

Maybe it was turned off as the time was running down while the National Anthem was being played.

Maybe the console was programmed "wrong" when the new sport / game was started.

Maybe it was turned off by accident.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Maybe it was off for some other sport. Maybe it was turned off as the time was running down while the National Anthem was being played. Maybe the console was programmed "wrong" when the new sport / game was started. Maybe it was turned off by accident.

There was an earthquake. A terrible flood. Locusts. It wasn't my fault, I swear to God.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

But in the OP the horn has sounded. At least that is how I read the scenario.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But in the OP the horn has sounded. At least that is how I read the scenario.

And that was the point of my post. The most obvious reading of the OP IMHO is that the horn has sounded.

But it's hard to argue JR's point about having the key

[just another ref]

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just prior to the horn sounding to signal the end of the quarter.


It is impossible to say based on simply this one sentence whether the horn sounded or not. The only thing that is certain is that the foul occurred before the horn. Wording like this is certainly not unheard of on test questions.

If one really wants to split hairs, (who would do that?) one could point out that even if the horn did sound in the OP, and even if time is not put back on the clock, in this particular case the horn does not end the quarter.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Wording like this is certainly not unheard of on test questions.

Exactly. Vague and confusing at time, and open to individual interpretation. We've argued the terminology used in some of 'em to death here over the years. I always personally found that the best way to approch them is just take the question at apparent face value without trying to read any additional info into it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just prior to the horn sounding to signal the end of the quarter.


It is impossible to say based on simply this one sentence whether the horn sounded or not. The only thing that is certain is that the foul occurred before the horn. Wording like this is certainly not unheard of on test questions.

I disagree. To state that event A to occurs before event B implies that event B does occur. The statement establishes an order of events, not a hypothetical order of possible events.