Clock/Time question

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tigertater

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just prior to the horn sounding to signal the end of the quarter. A1 is placed on the free throw line with 0:00 showing on the clock and no other players in the lane. (T or F)

At our camps over the summer, this situation was discussed, and we were told that with foul taking place with time on the clock (clock ran out due to lag time between when the whistle was blown the the timer could react to the sound), that some amount of time should be placed back on the clock, and A1 would then attempt the free throws with players in the lane.

This makes sense - however, no one can find anything in the NFSH books stating that time should be placed back on the clock..........and this is where the discussions get heated. If in fact what we were told at camp is correct about time being placed back on the clock, what ground would the officials have to stand on in this situation if it were to happen and the coach pulled out a rule book and asked to be shown where this were located?

Don't put any time back on the clock. This question is directly referring to NFHS case book play 5.6. It's the exact play. The same question has been on the FED exam more than a few times.

A period ends by rule on the signal(horn or light), not the time showing on the clock(5-6-2).

You're over-thinking the hell out of the play.

PS--the answer is FALSE because the players are supposed to be on the lane, by rule.

[Back In The Saddle]

Ummm, I guess it depends on how you understand "just prior to the horn sounding".

If you understand it to mean that the clock is showing 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, then you are correct in saying you shoot with players on the lane because the period will not end until the horn sounds.

If you understand it to mean that the horn did sound, but after the foul, then unless you have definite knowledge and put some time back on the clock the free throws will be shot with the lane cleared and the quarter ends when the free throws are complete.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Ummm, I guess it depends on how you understand "just prior to the horn sounding".

If you understand it to mean that the clock is showing 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, then you are correct in saying you shoot with players on the lane because the period will not end until the horn sounds.

If you understand it to mean that the horn did sound, but after the foul, then unless you have definite knowledge and put some time back on the clock the free throws will be shot with the lane cleared and the quarter ends when the free throws are complete.

I understand it to mean that the identical question has been on several NFHS tests already and it has always referred to the case play that I cited.

You can argue semantics until the cows come home, but a l'il common sense goes a long way.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Don't put any time back on the clock. This question is directly referring to NFHS case book play 5.6. It's the exact play. The same question has been on the FED exam more than a few times.

A period ends by rule on the signal(horn or light), not the time showing on the clock(5-6-2).

You're over-thinking the hell out of the play.

PS--the answer is FALSE because the players are supposed to be on the lane, by rule.

Why are players on the lane if the horn has sounded and we are not putting time back on the clock?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Why are players on the lane if the horn has sounded and we are not putting time back on the clock?

Because the period hasn't ended, by rule(5-6-2). And if the period hasn't ended, the clock doesn't start again to end the period until the ball is legally touched as per 5-9-3&4, depending on whether the last FT was good or not.

And also because the case play that I cited states that also.

[Jurassic Referee]

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

I'm sorry, but the OP reads differently than this, and seems to me to be a relic from the days of lag time. "Just prior to the horn sounding" indicates to me that the horn does indeed sound, immediately after the foul, and therefore the period will be over as soon as the final free throw is completed.

[Jurassic Referee]

I'm sorry also, but I've also got the answer key for that particular test.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm sorry also, but I've also got the answer key for that particular test.

LOL
Whatever you do, don't post it here!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm sorry, but the OP reads differently than this, and seems to me to be a relic from the days of lag time.

Just a comment about this piece: the case play refers to the clock reading 0 minutes and 00 seconds, which does not take tenths into account. The clock could have been stopped with time remaining, which would explain why the horn hadn't sounded. This does not necessarily involve "lag time."

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Just a comment about this piece: the case play refers to the clock reading 0 minutes and 00 seconds, which does not take tenths into account. The clock could have been stopped with time remaining, which would explain why the horn hadn't sounded. This does not necessarily involve "lag time."

But it could involve lag time, so Snaqs could be right.

Nah, you're right!

Though I will point out that the lag time rule and clocks that don't show 10ths of a second are both relics from the same era, and so "the days of lag time" are also the days before 10ths became the norm.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The case play refers to the clock reading 0 minutes and 00 seconds, which does not take tenths into account. The clock could have been stopped with time remaining, which would explain why the horn hadn't sounded.

Make sure that the clock operator has the automatic horn on. If the automatic horn is off, then the buzzer won't sound. In thirty years I've had the 0:00 situation with no horn several times. I always ask the clock operator, "Is the automatic horn on?" If he replies, "No", I ask him to turn it on. In many, but not all cases, the horn sounds, so we don't line up rebounders for the free throw. In a couple of cases the horn didn't sound when the automatic horn was turned on, so we had the rebounders line up during the free throws.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

But in the OP the horn has sounded. At least that is how I read the scenario.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But in the OP the horn has sounded. At least that is how I read the scenario.

And that was the point of my post. The most obvious reading of the OP IMHO is that the horn has sounded.

But it's hard to argue JR's point about having the key

[just another ref]

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just prior to the horn sounding to signal the end of the quarter.


It is impossible to say based on simply this one sentence whether the horn sounded or not. The only thing that is certain is that the foul occurred before the horn. Wording like this is certainly not unheard of on test questions.

If one really wants to split hairs, (who would do that?) one could point out that even if the horn did sound in the OP, and even if time is not put back on the clock, in this particular case the horn does not end the quarter.