Clock/Time question

[tigertater]

Hoping I can get some clarification on this one, as this has caused some rather heated discussions at our training meetings......this is one of the true/false questions on a rules test we are looking at.

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just prior to the horn sounding to signal the end of the quarter. A1 is placed on the free throw line with 0:00 showing on the clock and no other players in the lane. (T or F)

At our camps over the summer, this situation was discussed, and we were told that with foul taking place with time on the clock (clock ran out due to lag time between when the whistle was blown the the timer could react to the sound), that some amount of time should be placed back on the clock, and A1 would then attempt the free throws with players in the lane.

This makes sense - however, no one can find anything in the NFSH books stating that time should be placed back on the clock..........and this is where the discussions get heated. If in fact what we were told at camp is correct about time being placed back on the clock, what ground would the officials have to stand on in this situation if it were to happen and the coach pulled out a rule book and asked to be shown where this were located?

Thanks in advance.

[tjones1]

Lag time was taken out a couple years ago.

You need definite knowledge to place time back on the clock.

If you have it, then you correct the timing mistake and players will be allowed to line up in the lane. Otherwise, no players in the lane and A1 shoots their free throw(s).

I don't have my books with me.. but I believe it's in Rule 5.

[Adam]

And if the coach pulls out a rule book, shoot two more free throws.

[chseagle]

SECTION 6 BEGINNING, ENDING A QUARTER OR EXTRA PERIOD
ART. 1 . . . Each quarter or extra period begins when the ball first becomes live.
ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal illuminates or sounds indicating time has expired, as in 1-14.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. If the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the try or tap ends.
2. If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the clock is not stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation.
3. If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next, except when a correctable error, as in 2-10, is rectified. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.
4. If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws. This applies when the foul occurs after any quarter has ended, including the fourth quarter, provided there is to be an extra period. If there is no way to determine whether there will be an extra period until the free throws are administered, the free throws are attempted immediately, as if the foul had been part of the preceding quarter.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by chseagle

3. If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed.

The blue text is only relevant if the officials don't have definite knowledge of when it should have stopped. If the officials can determine how much time was on the clock when the whistle blow or how much time was on the clock after the whistle blew but before it hit 0.0, the timer should have also been able to stop the clock. If they KNOW the whistle was blown at 0.2, they should put 0.2 back on the clock. If, after the whistle, they see it at 0.1, they put 0.1 back on. If the whistle blows and the horns sounds IMMEDIATELY after it before an official can see the clock, don't put time back....shoot the FTs with no one on the lane.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tigertater

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting just prior to the horn sounding to signal the end of the quarter. A1 is placed on the free throw line with 0:00 showing on the clock and no other players in the lane. (T or F)

At our camps over the summer, this situation was discussed, and we were told that with foul taking place with time on the clock (clock ran out due to lag time between when the whistle was blown the the timer could react to the sound), that some amount of time should be placed back on the clock, and A1 would then attempt the free throws with players in the lane.

This makes sense - however, no one can find anything in the NFSH books stating that time should be placed back on the clock..........and this is where the discussions get heated. If in fact what we were told at camp is correct about time being placed back on the clock, what ground would the officials have to stand on in this situation if it were to happen and the coach pulled out a rule book and asked to be shown where this were located?

Don't put any time back on the clock. This question is directly referring to NFHS case book play 5.6. It's the exact play. The same question has been on the FED exam more than a few times.

A period ends by rule on the signal(horn or light), not the time showing on the clock(5-6-2).

You're over-thinking the hell out of the play.

PS--the answer is FALSE because the players are supposed to be on the lane, by rule.

[Back In The Saddle]

Ummm, I guess it depends on how you understand "just prior to the horn sounding".

If you understand it to mean that the clock is showing 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, then you are correct in saying you shoot with players on the lane because the period will not end until the horn sounds.

If you understand it to mean that the horn did sound, but after the foul, then unless you have definite knowledge and put some time back on the clock the free throws will be shot with the lane cleared and the quarter ends when the free throws are complete.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Ummm, I guess it depends on how you understand "just prior to the horn sounding".

If you understand it to mean that the clock is showing 0:00 but the horn has not sounded, then you are correct in saying you shoot with players on the lane because the period will not end until the horn sounds.

If you understand it to mean that the horn did sound, but after the foul, then unless you have definite knowledge and put some time back on the clock the free throws will be shot with the lane cleared and the quarter ends when the free throws are complete.

I understand it to mean that the identical question has been on several NFHS tests already and it has always referred to the case play that I cited.

You can argue semantics until the cows come home, but a l'il common sense goes a long way.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Don't put any time back on the clock. This question is directly referring to NFHS case book play 5.6. It's the exact play. The same question has been on the FED exam more than a few times.

A period ends by rule on the signal(horn or light), not the time showing on the clock(5-6-2).

You're over-thinking the hell out of the play.

PS--the answer is FALSE because the players are supposed to be on the lane, by rule.

Why are players on the lane if the horn has sounded and we are not putting time back on the clock?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Why are players on the lane if the horn has sounded and we are not putting time back on the clock?

Because the period hasn't ended, by rule(5-6-2). And if the period hasn't ended, the clock doesn't start again to end the period until the ball is legally touched as per 5-9-3&4, depending on whether the last FT was good or not.

And also because the case play that I cited states that also.

[Jurassic Referee]

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

I'm sorry, but the OP reads differently than this, and seems to me to be a relic from the days of lag time. "Just prior to the horn sounding" indicates to me that the horn does indeed sound, immediately after the foul, and therefore the period will be over as soon as the final free throw is completed.

[Jurassic Referee]

I'm sorry also, but I've also got the answer key for that particular test.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm sorry also, but I've also got the answer key for that particular test.

LOL
Whatever you do, don't post it here!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

BillyMac would have done this eventually....

5.6 SITUATION: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. A1's try or tap is successful to make the score with team A leading 62-58. When the foul occurs, the clock is stopped with 0:00 showing, but no end-of-period signal (horn or light) has indicated.
RULING: A1 will attempt the free throw with the lane spaces occupied as required. The fourth period time has not expired until the period-ending signal.

As I said, that test question evolved from this case play and has been used several times already iirc.

But in the OP the horn has sounded. At least that is how I read the scenario.