Free Throws

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, since part of the T's penalty has not yet been applied, the ball will be dead at the conclusion of the last FT.

Rule reference?

And, this actually is a correctable error. It is the failure to award merited FTs. The T FT's were awarded having skipped the 1+1 FTs....one official continued on with the game having not awarded the FTs...no different than if a throwin had occurred before recognizing that the 1+1 was not administered. It doesn't matter that the partner or the table knew there should have been a 1+1, it is about what was administered.

Hmmmmm, while I like the rationale, I'm pretty sure that there's a case play or a FED interpretation that says it's NOT a correctable error. I'll go through the old interps that BillyMac posted sometime this week to see if I can find what I'm thinking of.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Hmmmmm, while I like the rationale, I'm pretty sure that there's a case play or a FED interpretation that says it's NOT a correctable error. I'll go through the old interps that BillyMac posted sometime this week to see if I can find what I'm thinking of.

Well, seeing you're back on FED rules now.....

2004-05 Basketball Rules Interpretations:
Situation 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2's fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to team B's coach. Before a substitute is made the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the errror and huddle to discuss the situation.
RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B's head coach shall be notified of B2's disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. This is an official's error and not a correctable-error situation according to rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-4-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)

Close enough for me. Just extrapolate the logic used to the situation being discussed.

Bookmark this. It's a great aid:
http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Sounds like you're referring to the rules regarding correctable errors. This situation is not a correctable error, however.

So while I agree that Team B "should" get a throw-in as part of the penalty for the T, is there a rule basis for shooting the 1-and-1 with the lane cleared?

Sticking to NFHS rules.

Team B is in possession of the ball when the error was discovered; A1 shoots his 1-and-1 and then Team B retains possession.

Let's change it up a little by taking away the Technical Foul aspect.

A1 fouled (7th team foul). Officials award spot throw-in. A1 violates on throw-in. B1 gets ball at his disposal for subsequent throw-in. B1 calls a time-out. During time-out it's discovered A1 should have shot 1-and-1.

Are you lining them up or are you going to clear the lane and give the ball back to Team B for a throw-in?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, since part of the T's penalty has not yet been applied, the ball will be dead at the conclusion of the last FT.

And, this actually is a correctable error. It is the failure to award merited FTs. The T FT's were awarded having skipped the 1+1 FTs....one official continued on with the game having not awarded the FTs...no different than if a throwin had occurred before recognizing that the 1+1 was not administered. It doesn't matter that the partner or the table knew there should have been a 1+1, it is about what was administered.

Not only are you wrong but grunewar has already given you the case play in this thread.

8.7 SITUATION B: B1 fouls A1 just as the first quarter ends and then A1 retaliates and intentionally contacts B1. A1’s foul is a technical foul as it occurred during a dead ball. Team A is in the bonus. The officials by mistake administer the penalty for the technical foul before the free throw(s) by A1.
RULING: The penalties should have been administered in the order in which the fouls occurred. However, since all merited free throws were attempted it does not constitute a correctable error situation. The second quarter will begin with an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-19-5c)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Not only are you wrong but grunewar has already given you the case play in this thread.

8.7 SITUATION B: B1 fouls A1 just as the first quarter ends and then A1 retaliates and intentionally contacts B1. A1’s foul is a technical foul as it occurred during a dead ball. Team A is in the bonus. The officials by mistake administer the penalty for the technical foul before the free throw(s) by A1.
RULING: The penalties should have been administered in the order in which the fouls occurred. However, since all merited free throws were attempted it does not constitute a correctable error situation. The second quarter will begin with an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-19-5c)

Agree...once all the FTs had been taken. It doesn't not address the situation where the first FTs were skipped and not yet taken....which is a correctable error. They are merited FTs that were not awarded and the ball had been made live for other action. If they are not yet taken, it makes no distinction between skipping them because of getting the order wrong vs. skipping them because they table has the bonus count wrong....they were not taken when merited.

In the out-of-order situation, there is no longer anything to correct once they're taken...so it is no longer a correctable error....but it was until they were taken. Once they're taken, the situation becomes an official's mistake rather than a correctable error.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's nothing else available in the rules to hang your hat on either that would justify calling it differently.

How about blowing our whistle prior to the incorrect shooter/team releases the 1st FT try? That would kill the officials mistake, no?

Originally Posted by Zoochy

We call a 'T' on A1. While I am reporting the fouls to table and determining if team is in the bonus, partner is having Team B shoot the 'T'.
Yes, I was disappointed that partner started shooting, without confering with me.

I believe there's a procedure to help us eliminate this as well...
I dont know "who" called the T but if we confer PRIOR to heading to the table, then our partner cant administer incorrectly, especially in a 2 person game.
Personally, I like to have the closest non-calling official INTERCEPT the calling official on all Ts/Ints/Flagrants. What do you have & how will we resume play, by rule??

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by tref

How about blowing our whistle prior to the incorrect shooter/team releases the 1st FT try? That would kill the officials mistake, no?



I believe there's a procedure to help us eliminate this as well...
I dont know "who" called the T but if we confer PRIOR to heading to the table, then our partner cant administer incorrectly, especially in a 2 person game.
Personally, I like to have the closest non-calling official INTERCEPT the calling official on all Ts/Ints/Flagrants. What do you have & how will we resume play, by rule??

Maybe I was not clear enough in my original post. This was in a mens league. We bend mechanics proceedures. We make it easy on ourselves.
Now I am taking the situation to 'What if' it happened in a high school game.

As stated in several relpys, NFHS proceedure would be after completion of shooting the 'Technical foul' we would shoot the 1 and 1 without lining up the players and have Team B inbound the ball at the division line across from the table resulting from the 'T'.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Maybe I was not clear enough in my original post. This was in a mens league. We bend mechanics proceedures. We make it easy on ourselves.
Now I am taking the situation to 'What if' it happened in a high school game.

As stated in several relpys, NFHS proceedure would be after completion of shooting the 'Technical foul' we would shoot the 1 and 1 without lining up the players and have Team B inbound the ball at the division line across from the table resulting from the 'T'.

No, you were crystal in your initial post. All I'm saying is in any game, it would be better to blow the whistle prior to the mistake occuring. I dont care what level I'm working, I want to prevent our mistakes if I can.

I do plenty of mens wreck games as well, and yes, we bend the rules a bit too. Grown men playing by HS rules? One has to know how to manage those games accordingly. Im just saying, I look for opportunities to "step up" in that setting as well. Even if we dont confer, if I'm at the table & my partner is administering FTs in the wrong order. Why not blow my whistle & get it right in preperation for the next sanctioned game?