Free Throws

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Situation from mens league. A1 gets fouled (non-shooting). His hand gets jamed due to the foul. Frustrated from the 'injury', he kicks the ball. We call a 'T' on A1. While I am reporting the fouls to table and determining if team is in the bonus, partner is having Team B shoot the 'T'. Well, Team A is in the bonus, thus A1 needs to shoot a 1 and 1. I know proceedure is to have A1 shoot the 1and1, then member from team B shoot the 'T', then mid court throw-in for Team B opposite the table.

If this was a NFHS game ...

Meaning you were using NCAA-M rules? In that case, what you wrote in RED is incorrect.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

... But in the original situation, it's not the end of the quarter, so how do we resume play? Do we line up and allow rebounding after the 1-and-1, since the technical free throws have already been shot and we can't correct it? Or do we clear the lane and give Team B the ball at the division line because that's what "should have happened"?

Possession changed when B1 got the ball at his disposal for the technical free throw so you can't just line 'em for the 1-and-1 and go. Team B is entitled to a throw-in from the division line.

Tref For NCAA-M the correct procedure is to shoot the T then line up for the 1-and-1 so it would not have been a correctable error until Team A had the ball at its disposal for the subsequent throw-in.

[Upward ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Meaning you were using NCAA-M rules? In that case, what you wrote in RED is incorrect.



Possession changed when B1 got the ball at his disposal for the technical free throw so you can't just line 'em for the 1-and-1 and go. Team B is entitled to a throw-in from the division line.

Tref For NCAA-M the correct procedure is to shoot the T then line up for the 1-and-1 so it would not have been a correctable error until Team A had the ball at its disposal for the subsequent throw-in.

so let me try a newbie recap; (picture will be provided by Billymac) Count B's basket(s) if made, then still allow A's 1 & 1 (with the lane cleared ) then division line throw in for B and play on ?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Upward ref

Picture will be provided by BillyMac.

[Mark Padgett]

[Zoochy]

[QUOTE=BadNewsRef;694585]Meaning you were using NCAA-M rules? In that case, what you wrote in RED is incorrect. QUOTE]
We were not using NCAA-M rules. We were using NFHS rules. But when you work men's leagues you bend the rules to get the job done.
My concern was "If this was a high school game?"
We shot the 'T', we shot the 1 and 1 (no one lined up), then gave the ball to Team B because the 'T' was the last foul.

[BktBallRef]

[quote=Zoochy;694609]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

We shot the 'T', we shot the 1 and 1 (no one lined up), then gave the ball to Team B because the 'T' was the last foul.

Which is exactly what you should have done.

[CaRef5]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Meaning you were using NCAA-M rules? In that case, what you wrote in RED is incorrect.



Possession changed when B1 got the ball at his disposal for the technical free throw so you can't just line 'em for the 1-and-1 and go. Team B is entitled to a throw-in from the division line.

Tref For NCAA-M the correct procedure is to shoot the T then line up for the 1-and-1 so it would not have been a correctable error until Team A had the ball at its disposal for the subsequent throw-in.

So the player who got fouled (A1) needs to shoot the one and one, is also the player who got the T, in NCAA-M we would shoot the T, then line the players up for A1's one and one?

thanks for the clarification!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Possession changed when B1 got the ball at his disposal for the technical free throw so you can't just line 'em for the 1-and-1 and go. Team B is entitled to a throw-in from the division line.

Sounds like you're referring to the rules regarding correctable errors. This situation is not a correctable error, however.

So while I agree that Team B "should" get a throw-in as part of the penalty for the T, is there a rule basis for shooting the 1-and-1 with the lane cleared?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Sounds like you're referring to the rules regarding correctable errors. This situation is not a correctable error.

Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in:
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.
b. Awarding an unmerited free throw.
c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw.
d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket.
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.
If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point of interruption to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was made, in which case play shall resume as after any free-throw attempt(s).

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

So while I agree that Team B "should" get a throw-in as part of the penalty for the T, is there a rule basis for shooting the 1-and-1 with the lane cleared?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Sounds like you're referring to the rules regarding correctable errors. This situation is not a correctable error, however.

So while I agree that Team B "should" get a throw-in as part of the penalty for the T, is there a rule basis for shooting the 1-and-1 with the lane cleared?

Yes, since part of the T's penalty has not yet been applied, the ball will be dead at the conclusion of the last FT.

And, this actually is a correctable error. It is the failure to award merited FTs. The T FT's were awarded having skipped the 1+1 FTs....one official continued on with the game having not awarded the FTs...no different than if a throwin had occurred before recognizing that the 1+1 was not administered. It doesn't matter that the partner or the table knew there should have been a 1+1, it is about what was administered.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, since part of the T's penalty has not yet been applied, the ball will be dead at the conclusion of the last FT.

Rule reference?

And, this actually is a correctable error. It is the failure to award merited FTs. The T FT's were awarded having skipped the 1+1 FTs....one official continued on with the game having not awarded the FTs...no different than if a throwin had occurred before recognizing that the 1+1 was not administered. It doesn't matter that the partner or the table knew there should have been a 1+1, it is about what was administered.

Hmmmmm, while I like the rationale, I'm pretty sure that there's a case play or a FED interpretation that says it's NOT a correctable error. I'll go through the old interps that BillyMac posted sometime this week to see if I can find what I'm thinking of.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Hmmmmm, while I like the rationale, I'm pretty sure that there's a case play or a FED interpretation that says it's NOT a correctable error. I'll go through the old interps that BillyMac posted sometime this week to see if I can find what I'm thinking of.

Well, seeing you're back on FED rules now.....

2004-05 Basketball Rules Interpretations:
Situation 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2's fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to team B's coach. Before a substitute is made the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the errror and huddle to discuss the situation.
RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B's head coach shall be notified of B2's disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. This is an official's error and not a correctable-error situation according to rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-4-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)

Close enough for me. Just extrapolate the logic used to the situation being discussed.

Bookmark this. It's a great aid:
http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, seeing you're back on FED rules now.....

2004-05 Basketball Rules Interpretations:
Situation 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2's fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to team B's coach. Before a substitute is made the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the errror and huddle to discuss the situation.
RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B's head coach shall be notified of B2's disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. This is an official's error and not a correctable-error situation according to rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-4-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)

Close enough for me. Just extrapolate the logic used to the situation being discussed.

Bookmark this. It's a great aid:
http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

Nice cite, but it has absolutely nothing to do with shooting FTs out of order. It only addresses a player not being DQ'd properly---it merely says action that occurrs between when they should have DQ'd and when they are actually DQ shall stand. They didn't award an unmerited FT nor did they not award a merited FT.

The difference is that when the ball becomes live for the wrong FT, it becomes a correctable error situation...the deserved FTs were not awarded and the game has progressed.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The difference is that when the ball becomes live for the wrong FT, it becomes a correctable error situation...the deserved FTs were not awarded and the game has progressed.

That's an interesting way to look at it. But what if the mistake is discovered after all 4 free throws have been attempted.

Then there's no way to call it a correctable error, because all the merited free throws were awarded. So if we realize the mistake between the two sets of free throws, it's correctable; but if we realize it after all the free throws it's not? That doesn't seem very plausible to me.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Sounds like you're referring to the rules regarding correctable errors. This situation is not a correctable error, however.

So while I agree that Team B "should" get a throw-in as part of the penalty for the T, is there a rule basis for shooting the 1-and-1 with the lane cleared?

Sticking to NFHS rules.

Team B is in possession of the ball when the error was discovered; A1 shoots his 1-and-1 and then Team B retains possession.

Let's change it up a little by taking away the Technical Foul aspect.

A1 fouled (7th team foul). Officials award spot throw-in. A1 violates on throw-in. B1 gets ball at his disposal for subsequent throw-in. B1 calls a time-out. During time-out it's discovered A1 should have shot 1-and-1.

Are you lining them up or are you going to clear the lane and give the ball back to Team B for a throw-in?