I need help with this one...

[scooter2]

Page 38, Section 44, Art. 2 reads as follows:
A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1 Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.

The situation I saw was as follows:
Player A was leading the break and came to a jump stop with BOTH feet hitting simultaneously at the foul line. He was going to pass, but instead opted not to, and reverse pivoted before passing the ball back outside to a teammate. The referee called traveling on Player A.

The rule seems to state that this should NOT have been traveling. Is this traveling or not?

[grunewar]

Perhaps the referee saw this:

b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both.
Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

So, if you saw both feet off the floor, you could be correct. However, the official might have seen it as above with one foot on the floor, and in that case, he would be correct.

[hoopguy]

The first part of the play you describe is called a jump stop. That part is legal. What is not legal is pivoting from the jump stop. At camp, this was referred to as a 'jump stop extra' and is a travel. In addition to what grunewar states, check out case play 4.44.2

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by scooter2

Page 38, Section 44, Art. 2 reads as follows:
A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1 Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.

The situation I saw was as follows:
Player A was leading the break and came to a jump stop with BOTH feet hitting simultaneously at the foul line. He was going to pass, but instead opted not to, and reverse pivoted before passing the ball back outside to a teammate. The referee called traveling on Player A.

The rule seems to state that this should NOT have been traveling. Is this traveling or not?

The rule you're quoting refers to the play where a player who is in the air catches the ball and then lands on both feet. Either foot may be the pivot in that case.

The play you describe is a jump stop by a player already in possession of the ball. That player cannot pivot after the jump stop.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

The first part of the play you describe is called a jump stop. That part is legal. What is not legal is pivoting from the jump stop.

There are two types of "jump stops." After one, the player can pivot; after the other, the player cannot.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There are two types of "jump stops." After one, the player can pivot; after the other, the player cannot.

So would it be fair to say that when a player is in the air w/o posession, catches the ball, jumpstops on both feet, either foot may be pivot...BUT when a player is dribbling and already has posession, jump stops on both feet, NEITHER foot can pe pivot?

[APG]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

So would it be fair to say that when a player is in the air w/o posession, catches the ball, jumpstops on both feet, either foot may be pivot...BUT when a player is dribbling and already has posession, jump stops on both feet, NEITHER foot can pe pivot?

If the player ends the dribble with a foot on the floor, jumps, and lands simultaneously on both feet, then the player may NOT pivot. If the player ends the dribble with both feet off the floor, and lands simultaneously with both feet, then the player may pivot with either foot. This is the version of the jump stop I see most often and I think the version most coaches teach their kids. It's all a matter of determining when the dribble was ended.

[hoopguy]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If the player ends the dribble with a foot on the floor, jumps, and lands simultaneously on both feet, then the player may NOT pivot. If the player ends the dribble with both feet off the floor, and lands simultaneously with both feet, then the player may pivot with either foot. This is the version of the jump stop I see most often and I think the version most coaches teach their kids. It's all a matter of determining when the dribble was ended.

If a player is dribbling and jumps in the air and ends their dribble and lands simultaneously on two feet then it is either a legal jump stop or a travel(non-legal jump stop). There can be no pivoting(legally) after dribble then jump in the air and ending the dribble and then landing simultaneously on two feet.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

If a player is dribbling and jumps in the air and ends their dribble and lands simultaneously on two feet then it is either a legal jump stop or a travel(non-legal jump stop). There can be no pivoting(legally) after dribble then jump in the air and ending the dribble and then landing simultaneously on two feet.

Say what?

NFHS rule 4-44-2(a)..."A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows: (a1) If both feet are off the floor and the player lands simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot."

Best re-think that one. You're wrong.

[APG]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

If a player is dribbling and jumps in the air and ends their dribble and lands simultaneously on two feet then it is either a legal jump stop or a travel(non-legal jump stop).

If a player dribbles and ends his dribble while both feet are in the air, he'll either land simultaneously on both feet and be allowed to pivot on either foot, or one foot will come down before the other and will establish one foot or the other as a pivot foot (or thirdly he'll land on one foot, jump off that foot, and land simultaneously on both feet or else be called for traveling).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

If a player is dribbling and jumps in the air and ends their dribble and lands simultaneously on two feet then it is either a legal jump stop or a travel(non-legal jump stop). There can be no pivoting(legally) after dribble then jump in the air and ending the dribble and then landing simultaneously on two feet.

So by this logic, what happens when a player catches the ball in the air and lands on both feet, but not simultaneously?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So by this logic, what happens when a player catches the ball in the air and lands on both feet, but not simultaneously?

And what about when a player catches the ball in the air and lands on his butt? Does he have to establish a pivot cheek?

[hoopguy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So by this logic, what happens when a player catches the ball in the air and lands on both feet, but not simultaneously?

What does my post have to do with catching the ball? It is about ending the dribble. So why say 'by this logic' when I am talking about dribbling and you are talking about catching the ball? As you know, the rules are very specific to each.

Back to my point. I guess I am unclear as to how the player can end the dribble while in the air. What I picture is the player taking his last dribble and jumping to pass or shoot or finish his move with his jump stop or take his steps to the basket. I can't really picture a player dribbling while in the air. I guess in theory this is possible.

edit;
Just thought of this. About one year ago, I was playing in a pick-up game. Shot went up and player A rebounded and while still in the air, he dribbled the ball and then caught it and then landed. No idea why he did this but it fits perfectly in this post and is legal and now the player can pivot using either foot. I actually got into an argument with another player about this, because it looked so weird the other player said it was a travel and he could not come down with ball. I argued that he could.

Now, if this ever occurs in a game I am reffing, I know he can come down with the ball and pivot with either foot

I admit being wrong but it is a very weird play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

Back to my point. I guess I am unclear as to how the player can end the dribble while in the air.

Again, it's clearly delineated in the rules. As per NFHS rule 4-15-4, the dribble ends when the dribbler catches the ball or causes it to come to rest in one or both hands. And if the dribbler does that while he's airborne, he's now governed by the rule cited above--rule 4-44-2(a). If he now lands simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot. If he lands on one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot. If he lands on one foot, he can jump off that foot and land simultaneously on both feet but neither foot can never be the pivot.

Rule 4-44-2(b) tells you what to call when a player ends a dribble while having one foot on the floor.

If you forget about what a "jump stop" is supposed to be and simply learn those rules, you'll never have a problem getting the call right.

AllPurposeGamer gave you the correct answers.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

What does my post have to do with catching the ball? It is about ending the dribble. So why say 'by this logic' when I am talking about dribbling and you are talking about catching the ball? As you know, the rules are very specific to each.

Back to my point. I guess I am unclear as to how the player can end the dribble while in the air. What I picture is the player taking his last dribble and jumping to pass or shoot or finish his move with his jump stop or take his steps to the basket. I can't really picture a player dribbling while in the air. I guess in theory this is possible.

edit;
Just thought of this. About one year ago, I was playing in a pick-up game. Shot went up and player A rebounded and while still in the air, he dribbled the ball and then caught it and then landed. No idea why he did this but it fits perfectly in this post and is legal and now the player can pivot using either foot. I actually got into an argument with another player about this, because it looked so weird the other player said it was a travel and he could not come down with ball. I argued that he could.

Now, if this ever occurs in a game I am reffing, I know he can come down with the ball and pivot with either foot

I admit being wrong but it is a very weird play.

Actually by rule, I believe u would be wrong on that ruling. If player A attempts a dribble while in air then "by rule" he has traveled. U cannot dribble without having a pivot foot.