Ejection ...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

(In my best Archie Bunker voice) Jeeeezzzz!!

Umm NO, sorry, never said THAT!
What I did say, in plain english mind you, was,
ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."
Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

I never said Billy did anything incorrect, excuse me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were in the business of improving day to day by thinking things through AFTER the game. Like, how could I have handled this better??

Ok, I wasn't entirely clear you were talking to the coach, rather than the table.

As far as what Billy said, I still see absolutely nothing wrong with what he told the coach. He certainly didn't say, "Hey, coach, #11's an idiot and needs to come out and sit next to the other idiots on the bench." In other words, I don't see where he said anything that could be construed as confrontational or demeaning, but rather professional and straight-to-the-point.

Sometimes something happens in the game that is totally outside our control, no matter what we do. Perhaps the coach was upset with a player not running a play correctly (for the 5th time that game), and it's the son of the school board president, which is why he took it out on Billy instead of the kid. Since the coach was a parent or volunteer, that person probably didn't understand the meaning of sportsmanship, and decided he wanted to "show the players he had their back"? Who cares if the stop sign sign didn't work? No matter what, the coach was wrong in their actions, and Billy did what was necessary. It wasn't Billy's fault the coach didn't understand the limits, and it's not our job to inform them or handle them any differently than if it was an actual coach.

It would be nice if there was some magic formula of words and actions that work every time to keep all our games under control. Unfortunately, there aren't, so it's best if we stick with the prescribed mechanics and rules.

[tref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

It would be nice if there was some magic formula of words and actions that work every time to keep all our games under control. Unfortunately, there aren't, so it's best if we stick with the prescribed mechanics and rules.

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

4. It eliminates the coach saying:
"I already KNOW & there is a SUB at the table" which really means "Thats why theres a guy at the table, you idiot! And since you're an idiot let me tell you about that foul on THEM before you decided to blow your whistle."

Which was my point about asking a coach "full or 30" late in the game when they havent had a 30 since before halftime. Ever hear the smartass comments they make in those situations, especially if theyre losing??

It only took me 1 time to learn to pay attention to all the details of the game within the game & utilize the table crew to assist. I asked a coach that a few years back & he flipped on me, "We used (2) 30s in the 1st frickin Q, what game are you working?"
Now my table informs the crew when a team is out of a particular t/o.

Personally, I like to reflect on situations where I get pushback & think about:
1. What caused it?
2. How I could've handled it better?
3. What will I do different next time it happens?

But as you said sometimes sh!t is just gonna happen.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tref

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

2a. I follow the prescribed mechanic and tell my partner that #11 has committed thier 5th foul.
2b. My partner informs coach of the 5th foul.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

4. It eliminates the coach saying:
"I already KNOW & there is a SUB at the table" which really means "Thats why theres a guy at the table, you idiot! And since you're an idiot let me tell you about that foul on THEM before you decided to blow your whistle."

Which was my point about asking a coach "full or 30" late in the game when they havent had a 30 since before halftime. Ever hear the smartass comments they make in those situations, especially if theyre losing??

It only took me 1 time to learn to pay attention to all the details of the game within the game & utilize the table crew to assist. I asked a coach that a few years back & he flipped on me, "We used (2) 30s in the 1st frickin Q, what game are you working?"
Now my table informs the crew when a team is out of a particular t/o.

Personally, I like to reflect on situations where I get pushback & think about:
1. What caused it?
Ans. Not using the NFHS mechanic.

2. How I could've handled it better?
Ans. Use the NFHS mechanic

3. What will I do different next time it happens?
Ans. Use the NFHS mechanic

But as you said sometimes sh!t is just gonna happen.

Follow the mechanics

[tref]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

2a. I follow the prescribed mechanic and tell my partner that #11 has committed thier 5th foul.
2b. My partner informs coach of the 5th foul.

Follow the mechanics

That's not applicable 'round here Only the cowardly wants their partner to finish their business

And even though I'm on my rules, I'm not a rulebook official! Its a people business & that aint taught in no rulebook... gotta be born with it OR learn to do it.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tref

That's not applicable 'round here Only the cowardly wants their partner to finish their business

And even though I'm on my rules, I'm not a rulebook official! Its a people business & that aint taught in no rulebook... gotta be born with it OR learn to do it.

While it may be customary to finish what you started in your back yard, which I am fine with, the situation might not have evolved into an ejection by using the recommended mechanic.

I know of assignors that would go back to the official and asked why the mechanic was not followed, there is a reason for them. But you are not a Rule Book official, yet you know the rules ...

The OP was looking for viable options, and this is just one.

Yes, officiating is a people business, there are just a lot of stoopid people...they are called coaches

[tref]

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

You still need to inform the coach that 11 has 5 fouls.

"Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

While the sub may well be for 11, the coach may not be aware he has 5 fouls.

Why not? Does he not understand English? Am I doing a FIBA game? Jeeezzz

"Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

Later on in the game he may try to insert 11 back into the game not knowing he has 5 fouls, and when 11 is not allowed back in because of his fouling out, the coach is going to be even more mad that you didn't let him know his player had 5. That will probably lead to a bigger confrontation than the one you're trying to avoid with him fouling out. Suck it up, and just tell the coach he has 5. JMO

Yeah okay... he brings that player back AFTER I tell him he has 5 & it becomes all too easy! WHACK!
BTW, nowadays the player would tell the coach he is not going back in the game with 20 seconds left down by 30+ :-)

Originally Posted by icallfouls

While it may be customary to finish what you started in your back yard, which I am fine with, the situation might not have evolved into an ejection by using the recommended mechanic.

I know of assignors that would go back to the official and asked why the mechanic was not followed, there is a reason for them. But you are not a Rule Book official, yet you know the rules ...

For the last time, we dont get together on players fouling out! Only atypical situations.


Hmmmm I guess this is what the Twilight Zone feels like?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tref

Only the cowardly wants their partner to finish their business

That's one of the stupidest comments I have read on this board in a long time. So you are a "people person" but can't figure out that switching places is a valid way to calm a volatile situation? That's not much of a "people person". That's more of an "it's all about me person".

And the "Is the sub for 11, he has 5" statement is neither the proper way to handle the situation nor a very good way to communicate. A possible scenario:

tref: "Is the sub for #11, he has 5?"

coach: "What? That kid hasn't even been in the game yet?"

tref: "No, no, no, Coach. Number 11 has 5 fouls and I was wondering if the sub was coming in for number 11."

Coach: "Why didn't you just say that number 11 had five fouls! That's pretty much par for the course with the way you have been calling this game tonight."

Great game management there.

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That's one of the stupidest comments I have read on this board in a long time. So you are a "people person" but can't figure out that switching places is a valid way to calm a volatile situation? That's not much of a "people person". That's more of an "it's all about me person".

Once again, WE DONT DO THAT HERE on 5th fouls! Handle your own business!! In the OP there was nothing volatile going on...
I dont have to try to outshine my partners, I illuminate naturally. Thats why I clocked in & got instant gratification. No 10+ years to get the big one over here. So get yours because I'm getting mine

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And the "Is the sub for 11, he has 5" statement is neither the proper way to handle the situation nor a very good way to communicate. A possible scenario:

tref: "Is the sub for #11, he has 5?"

coach: "What? That kid hasn't even been in the game yet?"

tref: "No, no, no, Coach. Number 11 has 5 fouls and I was wondering if the sub was coming in for number 11."

Coach: "Why didn't you just say that number 11 had five fouls! That's pretty much par for the course with the way you have been calling this game tonight."

Great game management there.

When I say that & it's rare that I call 5th fouls, but when I do my body language communicates to the HC exactly who I'm talking about.

Greatly appreciate your negative scenario! Thanks for playing! Now as you were

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

Once again, WE DONT DO THAT HERE on 5th fouls! Handle your own business!! In the OP there was nothing volatile going on...
I dont have to try to outshine my partners, I illuminate naturally. Thats why I clocked in & got instant gratification. No 10+ years to get the big one over here. So get yours because I'm getting mine



When I say that & it's rare that I call 5th fouls, but when I do my body language communicates to the HC exactly who I'm talking about.

Greatly appreciate your negative scenario! Thanks for playing! Now as you were

So, let me get this straight - the reason you do it your way is because you "illuminate naturally", you clock in and get instant gratification, you're getting yours, and you do this all by communicating through body language?

Oh, ok.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

That's one of the stupidest comments I have read on this board in a long time. So you are a "people person" but can't figure out that switching places is a valid way to calm a volatile situation? That's not much of a "people person". That's more of an "it's all about me person".

And the "Is the sub for 11, he has 5" statement is neither the proper way to handle the situation nor a very good way to communicate. A possible scenario:

tref: "Is the sub for #11, he has 5?"

coach: "What? That kid hasn't even been in the game yet?"

tref: "No, no, no, Coach. Number 11 has 5 fouls and I was wondering if the sub was coming in for number 11."

Coach: "Why didn't you just say that number 11 had five fouls! That's pretty much par for the course with the way you have been calling this game tonight."

Great game management there.

I think he was being sarcastic and referencing a prior thread.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. .

Let me go slow also so that you don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

There is a damn good reason to let the coach know that his player just committed his fifth foul. And that reason is that the prescribed mechanics and rules tell you that it's the correct procedure to follow. M&M already gave you the rule that backs that up. Imo your version of "common sense" is telling you to ignore the prescribed rule and mechanic in order to keep away from the coach in case he might complain to you. That ain't game management; that's just making up an excuse to avoid a possible confrontation.

Just do your job and take care of what comes up. If something happens, deal with it.

As usual, jmo.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

Just to make sure that you don't backpedal....

You're advocating above for officials to ignore a very plainly written rule and prescribed mechanic. And you can't see anything the matter with that either.

That just about says it all imo about your officiating "sense".....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... is no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

For the umpteeth freaking time, Juggs......see above.

He's AT the table, nowhere near the coach. He's asking the question TO the table. The rules say that we HAVE to let the coach know that his player just committed their fifth foul. At no time did tref go down and do that. I have no idea howintheheck either how anyone can assume that the coach even heard the question when the coach isn't supposed to be anywhere near the table, by rule.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For the umpteeth freaking time, Juggs......see above.

He's AT the table, nowhere near the coach. He's asking the question TO the table. The rules say that we HAVE to let the coach know that his player just committed their fifth foul. At no time did tref go down and do that. I have no idea howintheheck either how anyone can assume that the coach even heard the question when the coach isn't supposed to be anywhere near the table, by rule.

Blow things out of proportion much?

I had trouble searching through all of the replies, which is why I tasked you to find the quote tref said. I know you spend a lot of time on here, so you may as well spend more, rather than me.

I did read somewhere that said voicing "Is so-and-so a sub for #x, who has 5" and thought it was tref. If it wasn't, I apologize.

I know that you know that I follow mechanics properly. As for my local rules interp, you're just trying to paint me with a colour that you know damn well isn't true, so you should just stop that sort of behavior.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I know that you know that I follow mechanics properly. As for my local rules interp, you're just trying to paint me with a colour that you know damn well isn't true, so you should just stop that sort of behavior.

Yes, and I also know that you know the rules better than the average bear also. That's why I was frankly quite amazed when you seemed to advocate not following the prescribed rule and mechanic. That's certainly out of character for you.

At no time did I intend to demean you or your rules knowledge in any way. If you thought so, then I apologize to you for giving that impression.