Ejection ...

[tref]

Billy, no knock on you &/or how you handled your situation. Anybody could be a backseat driver! Madd respect for you & the rules knowledge you've blessed me with over the years!
My thoughts were based on your question, "Has anybody ever have a game go so bad, so quick?"

JR, all I've been trying to say is:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Foul on White 11. I report it to the table. Table informs me that it is 11's fifth foul.

I inform White coach that 11 has five fouls.

IMO that begins the flash point right there. Sorta like asking a coach if its a full or 30 second t/o late in the 4th Q when he's been out of 30s since the 2nd Q You don't think he's gonna have something smart to say?

The game within the game! Know your surroundings, see the sub at the table & converse accordingly. ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."
Since little hinges swing big doors, perhaps wording it that way could have eliminated the following:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

White Coach informs me that he already knows and has a sub available at the table and adds that we should have called a foul on Red previous to 11's foul.

I simply state "That's enough coach", while giving a non-threatening "stop sign". In twenty-nine years this technique has worked for me 99.5% of the time.

My point was, if a team is getting hammered & they have a player foul out in a EOG situation & we go tell the coach something (11 has 5 fouls) that he has already taken care of... he gets to chirp about a call he thinks he should've got!
I hear you, coach instead of that's enough coach w/stop sign could've minimized the chances of Ts being thrown... especially when he hadn't said a word all game. OR maybe not, but putting ourselves in the best position to difuse situations as opposed to pouring gasoline on it is always better. Wouldn't ya say?

If I "that's enoughed w/stop sign" every coach who said, "there was a foul on them before we fouled" there would be alot of assistants getting their opportunity. Because once we give that stop sign, we have got to take care of business on the next negative interaction. Cant take it back!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

JR, all I've been trying to say is:

IMO that begins the flash point right there. Sorta like asking a coach if its a full or 30 second t/o late in the 4th Q when he's been out of 30s since the 2nd Q You don't think he's gonna have something smart to say?

So, um, let me get this straight, you would purposely avoid your responsibility under 2-8-4, just so you can keep the coach from saying some smart comment? Isn't that effectively having the coach control you, and your actions? When does White 11 become disqualified? Under your scenario, never, per 4-14-2.

Billy did exactly what he was supposed to do, which was inform the coach that player had 5 fouls. The coach continued to act inappropriately, and was penalized accordingly. Like rocky said, we can argue style points all day, but what Billy did was correct. And what the coach did had nothing to do with being informed #11 had 5 fouls.

[tref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, um, let me get this straight, you would purposely avoid your responsibility under 2-8-4, just so you can keep the coach from saying some smart comment? Isn't that effectively having the coach control you, and your actions? When does White 11 become disqualified? Under your scenario, never, per 4-14-2.

Billy did exactly what he was supposed to do, which was inform the coach that player had 5 fouls. The coach continued to act inappropriately, and was penalized accordingly. Like rocky said, we can argue style points all day, but what Billy did was correct. And what the coach did had nothing to do with being informed #11 had 5 fouls.

(In my best Archie Bunker voice) Jeeeezzzz!!

Umm NO, sorry, never said THAT!
What I did say, in plain english mind you, was,
ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."
Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

I never said Billy did anything incorrect, excuse me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were in the business of improving day to day by thinking things through AFTER the game. Like, how could I have handled this better??

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

(In my best Archie Bunker voice) Jeeeezzzz!!

Umm NO, sorry, never said THAT!
What I did say, in plain english mind you, was,
ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."
Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

I never said Billy did anything incorrect, excuse me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were in the business of improving day to day by thinking things through AFTER the game. Like, how could I have handled this better??

Ok, I wasn't entirely clear you were talking to the coach, rather than the table.

As far as what Billy said, I still see absolutely nothing wrong with what he told the coach. He certainly didn't say, "Hey, coach, #11's an idiot and needs to come out and sit next to the other idiots on the bench." In other words, I don't see where he said anything that could be construed as confrontational or demeaning, but rather professional and straight-to-the-point.

Sometimes something happens in the game that is totally outside our control, no matter what we do. Perhaps the coach was upset with a player not running a play correctly (for the 5th time that game), and it's the son of the school board president, which is why he took it out on Billy instead of the kid. Since the coach was a parent or volunteer, that person probably didn't understand the meaning of sportsmanship, and decided he wanted to "show the players he had their back"? Who cares if the stop sign sign didn't work? No matter what, the coach was wrong in their actions, and Billy did what was necessary. It wasn't Billy's fault the coach didn't understand the limits, and it's not our job to inform them or handle them any differently than if it was an actual coach.

It would be nice if there was some magic formula of words and actions that work every time to keep all our games under control. Unfortunately, there aren't, so it's best if we stick with the prescribed mechanics and rules.

[tref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

It would be nice if there was some magic formula of words and actions that work every time to keep all our games under control. Unfortunately, there aren't, so it's best if we stick with the prescribed mechanics and rules.

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

4. It eliminates the coach saying:
"I already KNOW & there is a SUB at the table" which really means "Thats why theres a guy at the table, you idiot! And since you're an idiot let me tell you about that foul on THEM before you decided to blow your whistle."

Which was my point about asking a coach "full or 30" late in the game when they havent had a 30 since before halftime. Ever hear the smartass comments they make in those situations, especially if theyre losing??

It only took me 1 time to learn to pay attention to all the details of the game within the game & utilize the table crew to assist. I asked a coach that a few years back & he flipped on me, "We used (2) 30s in the 1st frickin Q, what game are you working?"
Now my table informs the crew when a team is out of a particular t/o.

Personally, I like to reflect on situations where I get pushback & think about:
1. What caused it?
2. How I could've handled it better?
3. What will I do different next time it happens?

But as you said sometimes sh!t is just gonna happen.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by tref

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

2a. I follow the prescribed mechanic and tell my partner that #11 has committed thier 5th foul.
2b. My partner informs coach of the 5th foul.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

4. It eliminates the coach saying:
"I already KNOW & there is a SUB at the table" which really means "Thats why theres a guy at the table, you idiot! And since you're an idiot let me tell you about that foul on THEM before you decided to blow your whistle."

Which was my point about asking a coach "full or 30" late in the game when they havent had a 30 since before halftime. Ever hear the smartass comments they make in those situations, especially if theyre losing??

It only took me 1 time to learn to pay attention to all the details of the game within the game & utilize the table crew to assist. I asked a coach that a few years back & he flipped on me, "We used (2) 30s in the 1st frickin Q, what game are you working?"
Now my table informs the crew when a team is out of a particular t/o.

Personally, I like to reflect on situations where I get pushback & think about:
1. What caused it?
Ans. Not using the NFHS mechanic.

2. How I could've handled it better?
Ans. Use the NFHS mechanic

3. What will I do different next time it happens?
Ans. Use the NFHS mechanic

But as you said sometimes sh!t is just gonna happen.

Follow the mechanics

[tref]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

2a. I follow the prescribed mechanic and tell my partner that #11 has committed thier 5th foul.
2b. My partner informs coach of the 5th foul.

Follow the mechanics

That's not applicable 'round here Only the cowardly wants their partner to finish their business

And even though I'm on my rules, I'm not a rulebook official! Its a people business & that aint taught in no rulebook... gotta be born with it OR learn to do it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. .

Let me go slow also so that you don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

There is a damn good reason to let the coach know that his player just committed his fifth foul. And that reason is that the prescribed mechanics and rules tell you that it's the correct procedure to follow. M&M already gave you the rule that backs that up. Imo your version of "common sense" is telling you to ignore the prescribed rule and mechanic in order to keep away from the coach in case he might complain to you. That ain't game management; that's just making up an excuse to avoid a possible confrontation.

Just do your job and take care of what comes up. If something happens, deal with it.

As usual, jmo.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

Just to make sure that you don't backpedal....

You're advocating above for officials to ignore a very plainly written rule and prescribed mechanic. And you can't see anything the matter with that either.

That just about says it all imo about your officiating "sense".....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... is no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

For the umpteeth freaking time, Juggs......see above.

He's AT the table, nowhere near the coach. He's asking the question TO the table. The rules say that we HAVE to let the coach know that his player just committed their fifth foul. At no time did tref go down and do that. I have no idea howintheheck either how anyone can assume that the coach even heard the question when the coach isn't supposed to be anywhere near the table, by rule.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For the umpteeth freaking time, Juggs......see above.

He's AT the table, nowhere near the coach. He's asking the question TO the table. The rules say that we HAVE to let the coach know that his player just committed their fifth foul. At no time did tref go down and do that. I have no idea howintheheck either how anyone can assume that the coach even heard the question when the coach isn't supposed to be anywhere near the table, by rule.

Blow things out of proportion much?

I had trouble searching through all of the replies, which is why I tasked you to find the quote tref said. I know you spend a lot of time on here, so you may as well spend more, rather than me.

I did read somewhere that said voicing "Is so-and-so a sub for #x, who has 5" and thought it was tref. If it wasn't, I apologize.

I know that you know that I follow mechanics properly. As for my local rules interp, you're just trying to paint me with a colour that you know damn well isn't true, so you should just stop that sort of behavior.

[Adam]

With a 5th foul, we typically pregame that the calling official will inform the coach, as he's already there at the table. If he senses pending issues, he can absolutely hand it off to a partner and switch.
It sounds like, in Billy's game, I would have informed him as the calling official as the coach had presumably been a peach all game. I also would have likely ignored the "you missed a foul" comment, assuming it's the first such comment all game.
However, if I warned him (always possible depending on many unknown variables), the T has to follow if he ignores the warning. Otherwise, you can be sure any coaches watching (and paying attention) will start working me at tip-off when I have their game.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Just do your job and take care of what comes up. If something happens, deal with it.

As usual, jmo.

ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

Never seen so many people, in one place at one time with such a lack of reading comprehension skills. And to think some of you are decision makers

[Welpe]

Now this is getting interesting.

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by tref

ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

Never seen so many people, in one place at one time with such a lack of reading comprehension skills. And to think some of you are decision makers

You still need to inform the coach that 11 has 5 fouls. While the sub may well be for 11, the coach may not be aware he has 5 fouls. Later on in the game he may try to insert 11 back into the game not knowing he has 5 fouls, and when 11 is not allowed back in because of his fouling out, the coach is going to be even more mad that you didn't let him know his player had 5. That will probably lead to a bigger confrontation than the one you're trying to avoid with him fouling out. Suck it up, and just tell the coach he has 5. JMO