Ejection ...

[rockyroad]

We can argue the "I would have done it this way" or the "Stop sign vs. not" stuff all summer...the bottom line here is that the Coach made an inappropriate comment which was addressed by the Official. The Coach continued to make inappropriate comments and was assessed a T. The Coach CONTINUED to make inappropriate comments and got a second T and ejection. End of story.

As I said earlier in this thread, after the first T I am going over to my partner - rookie or no - to have a discussion about what we are going to do. Get as far away as possible. But if he/she keeps it up, I will give him/her the second T. And this Coach absolutely deserved both of them. The rest of this whole thread is just arguing over style points.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

We can argue the "I would have done it this way" or the "Stop sign vs. not" stuff all summer...the bottom line here is that the Coach made an inappropriate comment which was addressed by the Official. The Coach continued to make inappropriate comments and was assessed a T. The Coach CONTINUED to make inappropriate comments and got a second T and ejection. End of story.

As I said earlier in this thread, after the first T I am going over to my partner - rookie or no - to have a discussion about what we are going to do. Get as far away as possible. But if he/she keeps it up, I will give him/her the second T. And this Coach absolutely deserved both of them. The rest of this whole thread is just arguing over style points.

And the above is basically all that I've been trying to say.

[tref]

Billy, no knock on you &/or how you handled your situation. Anybody could be a backseat driver! Madd respect for you & the rules knowledge you've blessed me with over the years!
My thoughts were based on your question, "Has anybody ever have a game go so bad, so quick?"

JR, all I've been trying to say is:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Foul on White 11. I report it to the table. Table informs me that it is 11's fifth foul.

I inform White coach that 11 has five fouls.

IMO that begins the flash point right there. Sorta like asking a coach if its a full or 30 second t/o late in the 4th Q when he's been out of 30s since the 2nd Q You don't think he's gonna have something smart to say?

The game within the game! Know your surroundings, see the sub at the table & converse accordingly. ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."
Since little hinges swing big doors, perhaps wording it that way could have eliminated the following:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

White Coach informs me that he already knows and has a sub available at the table and adds that we should have called a foul on Red previous to 11's foul.

I simply state "That's enough coach", while giving a non-threatening "stop sign". In twenty-nine years this technique has worked for me 99.5% of the time.

My point was, if a team is getting hammered & they have a player foul out in a EOG situation & we go tell the coach something (11 has 5 fouls) that he has already taken care of... he gets to chirp about a call he thinks he should've got!
I hear you, coach instead of that's enough coach w/stop sign could've minimized the chances of Ts being thrown... especially when he hadn't said a word all game. OR maybe not, but putting ourselves in the best position to difuse situations as opposed to pouring gasoline on it is always better. Wouldn't ya say?

If I "that's enoughed w/stop sign" every coach who said, "there was a foul on them before we fouled" there would be alot of assistants getting their opportunity. Because once we give that stop sign, we have got to take care of business on the next negative interaction. Cant take it back!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

JR, all I've been trying to say is:

IMO that begins the flash point right there. Sorta like asking a coach if its a full or 30 second t/o late in the 4th Q when he's been out of 30s since the 2nd Q You don't think he's gonna have something smart to say?

So, um, let me get this straight, you would purposely avoid your responsibility under 2-8-4, just so you can keep the coach from saying some smart comment? Isn't that effectively having the coach control you, and your actions? When does White 11 become disqualified? Under your scenario, never, per 4-14-2.

Billy did exactly what he was supposed to do, which was inform the coach that player had 5 fouls. The coach continued to act inappropriately, and was penalized accordingly. Like rocky said, we can argue style points all day, but what Billy did was correct. And what the coach did had nothing to do with being informed #11 had 5 fouls.

[tref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, um, let me get this straight, you would purposely avoid your responsibility under 2-8-4, just so you can keep the coach from saying some smart comment? Isn't that effectively having the coach control you, and your actions? When does White 11 become disqualified? Under your scenario, never, per 4-14-2.

Billy did exactly what he was supposed to do, which was inform the coach that player had 5 fouls. The coach continued to act inappropriately, and was penalized accordingly. Like rocky said, we can argue style points all day, but what Billy did was correct. And what the coach did had nothing to do with being informed #11 had 5 fouls.

(In my best Archie Bunker voice) Jeeeezzzz!!

Umm NO, sorry, never said THAT!
What I did say, in plain english mind you, was,
ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."
Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

I never said Billy did anything incorrect, excuse me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were in the business of improving day to day by thinking things through AFTER the game. Like, how could I have handled this better??

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

(In my best Archie Bunker voice) Jeeeezzzz!!

Umm NO, sorry, never said THAT!
What I did say, in plain english mind you, was,
ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."
Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

I never said Billy did anything incorrect, excuse me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were in the business of improving day to day by thinking things through AFTER the game. Like, how could I have handled this better??

Ok, I wasn't entirely clear you were talking to the coach, rather than the table.

As far as what Billy said, I still see absolutely nothing wrong with what he told the coach. He certainly didn't say, "Hey, coach, #11's an idiot and needs to come out and sit next to the other idiots on the bench." In other words, I don't see where he said anything that could be construed as confrontational or demeaning, but rather professional and straight-to-the-point.

Sometimes something happens in the game that is totally outside our control, no matter what we do. Perhaps the coach was upset with a player not running a play correctly (for the 5th time that game), and it's the son of the school board president, which is why he took it out on Billy instead of the kid. Since the coach was a parent or volunteer, that person probably didn't understand the meaning of sportsmanship, and decided he wanted to "show the players he had their back"? Who cares if the stop sign sign didn't work? No matter what, the coach was wrong in their actions, and Billy did what was necessary. It wasn't Billy's fault the coach didn't understand the limits, and it's not our job to inform them or handle them any differently than if it was an actual coach.

It would be nice if there was some magic formula of words and actions that work every time to keep all our games under control. Unfortunately, there aren't, so it's best if we stick with the prescribed mechanics and rules.

[tref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

It would be nice if there was some magic formula of words and actions that work every time to keep all our games under control. Unfortunately, there aren't, so it's best if we stick with the prescribed mechanics and rules.

Concur! In addition to prescribed mechanics & rules, common sense!

Let me go s l o w so nobody gets confused or misconstrue what I'm saying

1. I report the foul to the table

2. They inform me that its the 5th.

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

4. It eliminates the coach saying:
"I already KNOW & there is a SUB at the table" which really means "Thats why theres a guy at the table, you idiot! And since you're an idiot let me tell you about that foul on THEM before you decided to blow your whistle."

Which was my point about asking a coach "full or 30" late in the game when they havent had a 30 since before halftime. Ever hear the smartass comments they make in those situations, especially if theyre losing??

It only took me 1 time to learn to pay attention to all the details of the game within the game & utilize the table crew to assist. I asked a coach that a few years back & he flipped on me, "We used (2) 30s in the 1st frickin Q, what game are you working?"
Now my table informs the crew when a team is out of a particular t/o.

Personally, I like to reflect on situations where I get pushback & think about:
1. What caused it?
2. How I could've handled it better?
3. What will I do different next time it happens?

But as you said sometimes sh!t is just gonna happen.

[Adam]

With a 5th foul, we typically pregame that the calling official will inform the coach, as he's already there at the table. If he senses pending issues, he can absolutely hand it off to a partner and switch.
It sounds like, in Billy's game, I would have informed him as the calling official as the coach had presumably been a peach all game. I also would have likely ignored the "you missed a foul" comment, assuming it's the first such comment all game.
However, if I warned him (always possible depending on many unknown variables), the T has to follow if he ignores the warning. Otherwise, you can be sure any coaches watching (and paying attention) will start working me at tip-off when I have their game.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Just do your job and take care of what comes up. If something happens, deal with it.

As usual, jmo.

ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

Never seen so many people, in one place at one time with such a lack of reading comprehension skills. And to think some of you are decision makers

[Welpe]

Now this is getting interesting.

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by tref

ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

Never seen so many people, in one place at one time with such a lack of reading comprehension skills. And to think some of you are decision makers

You still need to inform the coach that 11 has 5 fouls. While the sub may well be for 11, the coach may not be aware he has 5 fouls. Later on in the game he may try to insert 11 back into the game not knowing he has 5 fouls, and when 11 is not allowed back in because of his fouling out, the coach is going to be even more mad that you didn't let him know his player had 5. That will probably lead to a bigger confrontation than the one you're trying to avoid with him fouling out. Suck it up, and just tell the coach he has 5. JMO

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tref

Never seen so many people, in one place at one time with such a lack of reading comprehension skills. And to think some of you are decision makers

Hmm...

Originally Posted by tref

3. Im AT the table & see a sub there... no reason to let the coach know its the 5th. Thats why the sub is there!! Asking if the sub is for the player w/ 5 makes more sense to me.

I asked why you feel it's not necessary to tell a coach it's a player's 5th foul, and you ask us about our comprehension skills?

Telling the coach about a player's 5th foul is not a courtesy, or something that should be avoided if it looks like the coach is about ready to look at you cross-eyed or say something to you. It's a requirement that has implications in the game.

Whenever I hear an official talk about using "common sense", more often than not they're talking about doing something their way, rather than following the rules, because somehow their way seems easier. And it's so easy to say "I don't want to be one of those officials.", like knowing and following the rules is somehow a bad thing. But, more often than not, the official that uses that line is one that doesn't really know the rules, and they're simply making things up as they go along.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

ie: "Is the sub for 11, he has 5."

Does that not fulfill our responsiblities??

Never seen so many people, in one place at one time with such a lack of reading comprehension skills. And to think some of you are decision makers

No, it sureashell does NOT fulfill our responsibility. Our responsibility is to notify the coach, NOT to make a remark at the table. That is the rule and the prescribed mechanic.

It's you that seems to lack reading comprehension skills. All you have to do is read the freaking rule and then follow it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

1) My point was, if a team is getting hammered & they have a player foul out in a EOG situation & we go tell the coach something (11 has 5 fouls) that he has already taken care of... he gets to chirp about a call he thinks he should've got!

2) I hear you, coach instead of that's enough coach w/stop sign could've minimized the chances of Ts being thrown... especially when he hadn't said a word all game. OR maybe not, but putting ourselves in the best position to difuse situations as opposed to pouring gasoline on it is always better. Wouldn't ya say?

1) Why does any coach get to chirp about a call that he thinks he should've got? The rules explicitly say that he doesn't have the right to do that. I know there's real life, but coaches whining sureashell isn't a God-given right. He might get to chirp but I also get to tell him to stop his damn chirping.

2) And you're still missing my point. I really don't care what approach you take with the coach after his initial complaint. Personally, I have no problem with a warning but if you want to try something different than a warning and it works for you, hey, obviously your way is fine also. But if you do warn as Billy did in the original post, then I strongly believe that Billy had no choice but to do what he had to do dependant on subsequent events. All Billy did was react to the coach's refusal to shut up.

And to be quite honest, I also personally believe from a whole bunch of experience that saying "I hear you" wouldn't have changed anything in a situation like this. The coach had already made up his mind that he was going to get his complaints on the record and he really could care less at this point what you were saying to him. He's not really listening to you anyway. Either way, he's either going to make the complaint once to you and drop it or he's going to run with it and see how you react. He chose door #2 in this case and he went out that door because of his choice.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Why does any coach get to chirp about a call that he thinks he should've got? The rules explicitly say that he doesn't have the right to do that. I know there's real life, but coaches whining sureashell isn't a God-given right. He might get to chirp but I also get to tell him to stop his damn chirping..

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) And you're still missing my point. I really don't care what approach you take with the coach after his initial complaint. Personally, I have no problem with a warning but if you want to try something different than a warning and it works for you, hey, obviously your way is fine also. But if you do warn as Billy did in the original post, then I strongly believe that Billy had no choice but to do what he had to do dependant on subsequent events. All Billy did was react to the coach's refusal to shut up.

And to be quite honest, I also personally believe from a whole bunch of experience that saying "I hear you" wouldn't have changed anything in a situation like this. The coach had already made up his mind that he was going to get his complaints on the record and he really could care less at this point what you were saying to him. He's not really listening to you anyway. Either way, he's either going to make the complaint once to you and drop it or he's going to run with it and see how you react. He chose door #2 in this case and he went out that door because of his choice.

Point taken JR! With 45 seconds left & coach on his best behavior throughout the contest I'll choose to go with one of the following:
1. Ignore his whining STATEMENT
2. Nod yes.
3. I hear ya, coach
4. Hell, I might even stroke his ego & say, "You're right coach, I must've missed it. Will you send me the tape?"

Hahaha who gives a damn, its Miller time in 45 seconds...

Also, I believe the exceptional official responds vs. reacting to situations.