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Old Mon Sep 23, 2002, 08:29pm
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Question

It has come to my attention over the last basketball season, that some of the High School assigners in my area have no knowledge of the officials who have expierence in the 3 person rotation. As a result, during the playoffs some officials were overlooked for games due to the fact that the assigners didn't know if they were expierenced in the 3 person rotation. So, I was wondering how do the assigners in various parts of the country know which officials know the 3 person rotation? Or do they just bring in the college officials to cover theese games so that they don't have to worry about this problem.
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2002, 09:57pm
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Lightbulb All they have to do is ask.

Quote:
Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
It has come to my attention over the last basketball season, that some of the High School assigners in my area have no knowledge of the officials who have expierence in the 3 person rotation. As a result, during the playoffs some officials were overlooked for games due to the fact that the assigners didn't know if they were expierenced in the 3 person rotation. So, I was wondering how do the assigners in various parts of the country know which officials know the 3 person rotation? Or do they just bring in the college officials to cover theese games so that they don't have to worry about this problem.
They ask and the officials tell them. That simple.

Why did the assignors just not ask? Maybe it was not important to them? Maybe that was just not one of their requirements for the playoffs? If your state is new to the 3 Person system, it would have been hard to make this much of a factor.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Sep 24th, 2002 at 02:20 AM]
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 05:16am
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In my association (Virginia), we have at least 1 and most times 2 MANDATORY 3-person clinics. We check attendance at each meeting so the assignor knows who has 3-person experience. We cannot work district/region/state playoff games unless we have 3-person experience. All of our varsity games are 3-person.
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 07:22am
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Thumbs up

First, let me just say that I am talking about the New York City Metropolitan area. And yes, the 3 person crew is new to New York City in the public schools and only used during the playoffs. Why don't they just ask? I guess because some officials will just say "yes" they know the 3 person rotation,especially if they thought it would get them a playoff game.
I was told by one assigner that if they bring in the college officials to work theese big games, they don't have to worry about the 3 person rotation getting screwed up during theese games. Plus there jobs are on the line, and they can't afford to have officials screw it up for them. They took a step in the right direction last season,by holding a 3 person clinic before the playoffs and some officials had the opportunity to get introduced to the 3 person rotation for the very first time. I like the system that Virginia has in place and I would like to know how some of the other states address this issue.
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 08:14am
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Re: All they have to do is ask.

Quote:
[i]Originally posted by JRutledge
They ask and the officials tell them. That simple.

[i] [/B]
Rut,

That is a very dangerous way to do it. Someone saying that they know 3 person mechanics does not mean that they really do, or that you would want them in the playoff games. They may be some of the worst officials in the area. Unfortunately, we all know officials that would "pad" their resumes in order to get the big game.
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 10:23am
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Re: Re: All they have to do is ask.

Quote:
Originally posted by bigwhistle
...we all know officials that would "pad" their resumes in order to get the big game. [/B]
While in my short "career" I have not personally seen this, I can't figure out why someone would do this (and I have no doubt it is done all the time). Do people really think they are going to get away with it? Do they think they are suddenly going to get better when they walk on the floor? Do they think they will ever get a playoff/big game from that assignor again when they realize what has happened?

On the topic...why not simply contact the assignor, tell them you have 3-person experience and then say "Obviously I would like to have an opportunity to work some post season games. When can we schedule an time for you to watch me work. It can be any level, at any location you have. I will work my schedule around yours as much as possible." If the assignor does not have time, then ask if there is an official whose opinion he values and respects that can evaluate you. Be proactive! The person who said "all good things come to those who wait" was not trying to move up in officiating.

If I was wanting to get playoff games, that is the approach I would take.
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 10:25am
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OK...I am confused...how can the person assigning games NOT be aware of someone's experience level?? Isn't it part of their job to know that stuff??? Our assignor doesn't give anyone games above the freshman level without having seen them work - either in a camp or actually doing a game...I would think that the assignors would want that knowledge since their reputations are on the line also...
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 11:00am
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Re: Re: Re: All they have to do is ask.

Quote:
Originally posted by LarryS
While in my short "career" I have not personally seen this, I can't figure out why someone would do this. Do they think they are suddenly going to get better when they walk on the floor?
More likely, Larry, they think that they are already good enough to do the games. And they think that if they could just get a foot in the door, just get that one big game, then their talent would shine through and blind the assignor to the fact that they got the assignment deceitfully. Happens all the time in the business world.

Quote:
why not simply contact the assignor, tell them you have 3-person experience and then say "Obviously I would like to have an opportunity to work some post season games. When can we schedule an time for you to watch me work. It can be any level, at any location you have. I will work my schedule around yours as much as possible." If the assignor does not have time, then ask if there is an official whose opinion he values and respects that can evaluate you.
Larry, although it seems straight-forward and well-intentioned and professional, I would be worried that this approach would leave a poor impression with the assignor. Nobody wants to be seen as a self-promoter or a "gimme" guy. Plus if the assignor says he doesn't have time and you pursue it, you seem pushy and unable to "hear" what's being said.

Since I already mentioned the business world, imagine what would happen if you applied your approach to a job-hunting situation. "Hi, Mr. Jones. I'm a middle manager over at Company X and I'd be very interested in having a management position in your company. When can we set up a time for my interview?" It's not going to fly. And although the basketball world (certainly the HS basketball world) is not the business world, those of us who hope to progress to high levels often must treat it as if it were.

I am in a very similar situation right now. I went to camp and got good feedback from a D2 assignor. However, b/c of my location, he didn't ask me onto his staff. So after a couple weeks of trying to decide if I should pursue it and tell him I didn't mind the travel, I finally called him. He was unavailable and so I left a message. Now, a week later, he has not returned my call. Should I call him back and say, "Hey, I didn't hear back from you, so I wanted to make sure you know that I'm willing to travel to do your league"? I don't think I'll do that. There's a reason I didn't get called back. I'm not sure what it is, but there's a reason.

Similarly, I think once you approach the post-season assignor, if he says "no thanks", you have to leave it at that or risk getting a bad reputation.

Quote:
The person who said "all good things come to those who wait" was not trying to move up in officiating.
I agree that you should be pro-active. But I am always worried about being overly aggressive about it. In my case, being patient (and waiting) has been a good strategy. Maybe it doesn't work for everybody, and maybe I could've moved up even faster if I'd been more aggressive. But you have to remember that politics does play a part in climbing the ladder. If somebody thinks you're a jerk b/c you're too self-promoting, that will hurt you.

Now, all of what I've written has more to do with me than with you; b/c I don't know any of the assignors in your area. But I think in any officating circle, it's better to tread too lightly than too heavily on an assignor's toes.

Quote:
Originally posted by rockyroad
OK...I am confused...how can the person assigning games NOT be aware of someone's experience level?? Isn't it part of their job to know that stuff???
Rocky, I agree that in general an assignor should roughly know every official's ability level and experience. But maybe in larger regions (or for statewide tournaments), assignments are made by people that do not normally assign a particular league's officials. Is that possible? Also in some areas, there is no central assignor. Officials contract directly with schools or AD's for games. In those cases, whoever assigns post-season games might not have had to see every official in a given area. I don't really have a good answer to that question.

Sorry this is such a long post!!

Chuck
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 11:20am
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Re: Re: Re: Re: All they have to do is ask.

Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
I am in a very similar situation right now. I went to camp and got good feedback from a D2 assignor. However, b/c of my location, he didn't ask me onto his staff. So after a couple weeks of trying to decide if I should pursue it and tell him I didn't mind the travel, I finally called him. He was unavailable and so I left a message. Now, a week later, he has not returned my call. Should I call him back and say, "Hey, I didn't hear back from you, so I wanted to make sure you know that I'm willing to travel to do your league"? I don't think I'll do that. There's a reason I didn't get called back. I'm not sure what it is, but there's a reason.
Rats!! Don't worry, Chuck. When he realizes what he's missed (next year at camp?), he'll be pounding down the door. You've got a million things to offer, and he'll get the point.
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 12:47pm
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Re: Re: All they have to do is ask.

Originally posted by bigwhistle
Quote:

Rut,

That is a very dangerous way to do it. Someone saying that they know 3 person mechanics does not mean that they really do, or that you would want them in the playoff games. They may be some of the worst officials in the area. Unfortunately, we all know officials that would "pad" their resumes in order to get the big game.
How else are you going to have information that determines whether an official has done 3 Person or not?

You either go by the standards in which you already had in place, or you ask officials for who has had some experience and use that to determine (not alone but just a factor) who does the games and who stays.

When my state went to 3 Person for all playoff games, they asked officials for games they had done or would be doing during the year to see who was doing 3 Person games or not. It of course was not the only factor, but for those that had experience it might have helped some. There was still several officials that had never done a single game of 3 Person and many mistakes were made.

Peace
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 12:57pm
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Re: Re: Re: All they have to do is ask.

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
How else are you going to have information that determines whether an official has done 3 Person or not?
Um, maybe by observing them? Ask a silly question. . .

Chuck
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 02:55pm
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Lightbulb Not all areas are the same.

Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias


Um, maybe by observing them? Ask a silly question. . .

Chuck
Well according to Love, something was not down correctly. Not all states have people to watch every officical during every game. I know in Illinois, the state (which is the only one that assigns playoffs) has no knowledge of what games I do or where I do them until after I have officiated it. And considering that all states do not evaluate the same, it might not be as easy as you think. I can only speak from my experience, when not one organization or person gives everyone games in my state. So the only thing you might be able to do is just ask? Unless you are going to use summer camps or tape evaluation, I do not see what else could be expected. That is the case in certain sports where I live, they just ask.

Peace

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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 03:15pm
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Wink

Jeff, I'm just yankin' yer chain, man. You asked a very basic question, and I gave the most basic answer. You could ask if they've worked 3-man, sure; but you wouldn't know that the answers are truthful. So how else could you find out? Well, by seeing a guy work 3-man. That's all.

Is it possible to observe every official in the state work 3-man? Beats me. But that's one way you could confirm a guy's experience. Just yankin'.

Chuck
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 03:20pm
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I caught your humor.

I just answered more for the benefit of those that did not get it. I should have included one of these ().

I guess I am curious how else Love2ref4Ever would have them determine who has experience.

Peace
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2002, 05:30pm
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In My area there are so many games to cover and officials working, that there are about five assigners handling the boys and girls public school varsity and junior varsity games. So it seems like no one really addresses this issue until the playoffs roll around. I was lucky to get some playoff games in the first two rounds of the playoffs, so I don't have an argument. But,I felt that to make sure that the games were being covered by expierenced 3 person officials in the semi-finals and finals the assigners chose to call in the college officials. I then thought to make all of my assigners aware of my working knowledge of the 3 person rotation that I would try something different this season. I made photo copies of all of the certificates of completion that I received from the five 3 person camps that I attended over the summer.Then I mailed the copies to all of my assigners so that they would know that I continued to receive training during the summer in the 3 person rotation. Hopefully when the playoffs roll around this season and the subject of officials who know the 3 person comes up, I will be considered to work deeper into the tournament.
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