One T or two - if one, on who?

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think it's officiating in fear. Personally, I don't care if the state "upholds" my flagrant in this sort of situation. I will have done my job and slept well at night. If the state buys the coach's story, so be it. They will have my report. And if the coach has that much power and stature, it won't matter what the tape says anyway.

I don't reserve technical fouls for actions or words that are picked up on video tape. Would you call the flagrant if you knew there was no video tape of the game at all?

Great point, and I personally make the differentiation between a "T" and a Flagrant/andor ejection. Despite my Mr Joviality persona, I used to be one that would rather tick off a coach more than help them out. This caused me more problems than not early on. Working with my mentor, the line I drew seems to work for me. Basically, if I give a T treat it like a foul, but anything more severe ask myself "Am I doing this to the coach, b/c I want to or b/c they deserve it." and/or "Will a neutral observer agree with my decision". While some may call that 'officiating scared' in my case it has really improved my game management and interaction skills

And you are correct about there being criminal verbal assault. However, in a sporting event, the bar is set rather high b/c of the nature of the environment. It is much lower in domestic violence cases or your local adult beverage consuming station.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Great point, and I personally make the differentiation between a "T" and a Flagrant/andor ejection. Despite my Mr Joviality persona, I used to be one that would rather tick off a coach more than help them out. This caused me more problems than not early on. Working with my mentor, the line I drew seems to work for me. Basically, if I give a T treat it like a foul, but anything more severe ask myself "Am I doing this to the coach, b/c I want to or b/c they deserve it." and/or "Will a neutral observer agree with my decision". While some may call that 'officiating scared' in my case it has really improved my game management and interaction skills

I would only change it to, "would a neutral observer who knows everything I know agree with the call?" The simple fact is, sometimes coaches make comments that only we can hear that still have to be dealt with. The neutral observer in the stands may not hear it.
I just ask myself, "What would Bob do?"

Originally Posted by Judtech

And you are correct about there being criminal verbal assault. However, in a sporting event, the bar is set rather high b/c of the nature of the environment. It is much lower in domestic violence cases or your local adult beverage consuming station.

agreed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You're obviously a lot smarter than me.

Fixed it for ya.....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Fixed it for ya.....

crap, JR used blue font. I just lost about 4 bets.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

The point I was making was if the coach SAID it but the player didn't act on it you would have a tough case to prove criminality.

Nope, the point that you made was that you wouldn't do a damn thing as an official about a coach saying sumthin' like that except maybe tell your partners. No "T"...no ejection...no nothing! And I don't think that anybody else that has responded so far has agreed with you. Shouldn't that tell you something?

Are you MTD Sr.'s evil spawn, by any chance? Trying to keep you on track relative to your original response back in post #4 of this thread is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

crap, JR used blue font. I just lost about 4 bets.

Rest assured it ain't gonna be a habit. It was used to make a point only.

The usage of blue font is idiotic imo.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rest assured it ain't gonna be a habit. It was used to make a point only.

The usage of blue font is idiotic imo.

And thus the frost in Hell quickly thawed!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I just ask myself, "What would Bob do?"

I ask myself, "WWESHD?" (What Would Earl Strom Have Done?)

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Judtech

This would be different then hearing a coach swear which would be an auto "T". Until there is an actual punch in the face, I am not sure you can do anything. If there is no action, it becomes a 'he said/she said" incident. The coach could claim it is a figure of speech, or that you misheard what they said. If there was nothing else going on then just the coach yelling at his team, then that would be one thing. If that coach is on the floor and has their arm around a player and is pointing at the other teams huddle and singling out a player, then I would hit the T right there.In the OP, I would make sure that the whole crew that something might be afoot and get us all on the same page. Since the player took the swing they would both be gone. I would make sure that our supervisor knew of the incident and I am positive we would send a letter to the school stating that unless changes were made they would have to find another organization to cover their contests.

This is where I say I would "T" the coach. I will change that to more accurately say I would TOSS the coach. Hopefully, that will clear up any confusion on your part.
Also I stated under which other causes I would toss the coach and the player. So, it looks like according to my Post #4, there are actually some things that I would do.
As for being MTD's relative, since I am adopted you never know. Heck, I could be one of YOUR long lost relatives!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Until there is an actual punch in the face, I am not sure you can do anything. If there is no action, it becomes a 'he said/she said" incident. The coach could claim it is a figure of speech, or that you misheard what they said. If there was nothing else going on then just the coach yelling at his team, then that would be one thing.

In the OP, I would make sure that the whole crew that something might be afoot and get us all on the same page.

Yup, you're MTD Sr's illegitimate son, fer sure. Highlight something that's completely irrelevant and ignore the part that everybody is disagreeing with.

You can't do anything without a actual punch? He said-she said? Worrying about what a coach might say?

Lah me.......

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by Judtech

But they do seem to have the "statement question" down:
"How can you call that in summer league"?
"We don't get that call during the season?"
"WHy can't you just let them play''?
"Why can't my player get that call?"
"Well how come that was a foul last week"?
"You know they don't call it this way over in ______"?
and everyones favorite:
"Why does Kobe get to wear a wrist braclet?"

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That would be a step up from what I'm getting. And, FTR, I treat those "questions" just as I treat statements.

Still tryin' to figure out where my line is drawn: Those "questions" get the whack-a-mole, right?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by The Rooster

Still tryin' to figure out where my line is drawn: Those "questions" get the whack-a-mole, right?

For me, not by itself. But the ABS meter goes up incrementally with each one, and depending on the tone, volume, and antics I'll put a stop to it sooner or later.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Heck, I could be one of YOUR long lost relatives!!!

Naw, any like you we drown at birth. Old family tradition.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by The Rooster

Still tryin' to figure out where my line is drawn: Those "questions" get the whack-a-mole, right?

Originally Posted by mbyron

For me, not by itself. But the ABS meter goes up incrementally with each one, and depending on the tone, volume, and antics I'll put a stop to it sooner or later.

I'll add "frequency" to mbyron's list of "depending on." Usually the "questions" get ignored like the statements, however. If it starts to become a regular thing, then politely tell him that it needs to stop.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'll add "frequency" to mbyron's list of "depending on." Usually the "questions" get ignored like the statements, however. If it starts to become a regular thing, then politely tell him that it needs to stop.

This helps. Thanks.

So far (summer league) I've been going with the "What makes me uncomfortable" standard (nothing yet), in addition to what JR said about playing in an safe atmosphere that is free from threats, intimidation, and other junk. I know there are some absolutes (cussing, integrity, etc) about what we should whack, but I'm concerned about over-reacting... I've done pretty well so far in "turning down the heat" in situations by talking and using a smile with a sense of humor, but as I've said in other posts, this is a whole new world to me. I will take care of bidness in the obvious instances but am still learning that intensity and frequency balance.

During the summer one of my personal POEs has been game management, which for me means giving more attention to what's happening around the game as well. I've been trying to keep track of fouls, the score, and the possession arrow without having to ask the table. I'm not there yet, but I think I'm going in the right direction. Coaches have been pretty well-behaved and I've only had one incident with a parent. I didn't run him but he got the message and kept his mouth shut the rest of the game. AND he kept it shut the next day as well!

Y'all have been very helpful in my line coming into focus. I hope to make everyone here proud.

Thanks.