One T or two - if one, on who? - Page 2

IUgrad92 · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 01:26pm

Instead of the 'punch him in the face' comment you have this instead.

A1 fouls B1 on a rebound, let's say it's a 'hard' foul. Coach B tells B1, "if he does that again, put him on his a$$", and you hear the coach say this. Same penalty for the coach as in the OP?

mbyron · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Instead of the 'punch him in the face' comment you have this instead.

A1 fouls B1 on a rebound, let's say it's a 'hard' foul. Coach B tells B1, "if he does that again, put him on his a$$", and you hear the coach say this. Same penalty for the coach as in the OP?

Hard to say. I will definitely address it: it's probably an unsporting T, but probably not flagrant. "Retaliate!" is not quite the same as "punch him in the face!"

Judtech · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 01:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

It doesn't matter what the coach claims. There is not equal authority out on the court between coaches and officials. We are the judge, jury and executioner. If we hear it, that's it - period.

I agree 100%. Since this would be something I would toss a coach for, I would want to make sure it was a 100% righteous ejection. There are too many instances of "yeah,but.." ejections from both officials and supervisors. "Yeah, it was good by rule, but...______ ; could you have warned, ignored, are you sure, its hard to see on video etc" While I will treat a "T" like any other foul, ejections, again IMO, are at a whole other level. Because once you get in a pi%&$ contest with the state association, I don't just want to win, I want to win BIG with no doubt and destroy the credibility of that coach for questioning my decision. OK maybe that is my ego, but I have had to do it a couple of times and there was no doubt that what I did was correct, and that the coaches recollections of events were not 'borne out by the game video'. Love that phrase!

MD Longhorn · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judtech

Because once you get in a pi%&$ contest with the state association, I don't just want to win, I want to win BIG with no doubt and destroy the credibility of that coach for questioning my decision. OK maybe that is my ego, but I have had to do it a couple of times and there was no doubt that what I did was correct, and that the coaches recollections of events were not 'borne out by the game video'. Love that phrase!

Wow. Not trying to pile on here... but based on this post, you have your priorities completely out of whack. "Going to the state" and what happens there should have no bearing on whether your appropriately officate your games. CALL THE GAME. Let the rest fall where they may.

Adam · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 02:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judtech

I agree 100%. Since this would be something I would toss a coach for, I would want to make sure it was a 100% righteous ejection. There are too many instances of "yeah,but.." ejections from both officials and supervisors. "Yeah, it was good by rule, but...______ ; could you have warned, ignored, are you sure, its hard to see on video etc" While I will treat a "T" like any other foul, ejections, again IMO, are at a whole other level. Because once you get in a pi%&$ contest with the state association, I don't just want to win, I want to win BIG with no doubt and destroy the credibility of that coach for questioning my decision. OK maybe that is my ego, but I have had to do it a couple of times and there was no doubt that what I did was correct, and that the coaches recollections of events were not 'borne out by the game video'. Love that phrase!

And if, after you simply "warn" the coach, A1 proceeds to punch B1 in the face, how are you going to respond to the state telling you that you should have taken care of business?

Judtech · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 08:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judtech

This would be different then hearing a coach swear which would be an auto "T". Until there is an actual punch in the face, I am not sure you can do anything. If there is no action, it becomes a 'he said/she said" incident. The coach could claim it is a figure of speech, or that you misheard what they said. If there was nothing else going on then just the coach yelling at his team, then that would be one thing. If that coach is on the floor and has their arm around a player and is pointing at the other teams huddle and singling out a player, then I would hit the T right there.In the OP, I would make sure that the whole crew that something might be afoot and get us all on the same page. Since the player took the swing they would both be gone. I would make sure that our supervisor knew of the incident and I am positive we would send a letter to the school stating that unless changes were made they would have to find another organization to cover their contests.

This is where I say I would "T" the coach. I will change that to more accurately say I would TOSS the coach. Hopefully, that will clear up any confusion on your part.
Also I stated under which other causes I would toss the coach and the player. So, it looks like according to my Post #4, there are actually some things that I would do.
As for being MTD's relative, since I am adopted you never know. Heck, I could be one of YOUR long lost relatives!!!

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 23, 2010, 06:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judtech

Heck, I could be one of YOUR long lost relatives!!!

Naw, any like you we drown at birth. Old family tradition.

Jurassic Referee · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 09:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judtech

Until there is an actual punch in the face, I am not sure you can do anything. If there is no action, it becomes a 'he said/she said" incident. The coach could claim it is a figure of speech, or that you misheard what they said. If there was nothing else going on then just the coach yelling at his team, then that would be one thing.

In the OP, I would make sure that the whole crew that something might be afoot and get us all on the same page.

Yup, you're MTD Sr's illegitimate son, fer sure. Highlight something that's completely irrelevant and ignore the part that everybody is disagreeing with.

You can't do anything without a actual punch? He said-she said? Worrying about what a coach might say?

Lah me.......

JugglingReferee · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 08:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

On other recent threads, we've discussed assessing technicals to the coach, the team or to specific players for certain acts. Here's a hypothetical we can discuss.

NF rules. During a dead ball, Coach A loudly tells A1 to punch B1 in the face and you hear this. A1 does so. Do you have a flagrant technical only on Coach A, only on A1 or do you call one on each? Do you agree any foul(s) should be a flagrant?

Easiest call of the game. Flagrant on both.

Hornets222003 · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 08:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Easiest call of the game.

According to a recent gallup poll of 10,000 fans, the easiest call of the game is that their player got fouled

paxsonref · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 08:56am

So for arguments sake, since we all like a good argument, what if a coach yells something like the following:

"Next time he sets a moving screen, blast right through it!"

"Foul him!!!" ..... or other variations thereof at the end of a game...

In this case, do we T for the "blast through" comment? call an intentional in either case? thoughts?

Jurassic Referee · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by paxsonref

1) "Next time he sets a moving screen, blast right through it!"

2) "Foul him!!!" ..... or other variations thereof at the end of a game...

In this case, do we T for the "blast through" comment? call an intentional in either case? thoughts?

1) I'd tell the coach that if his player blasts through the screen, the call is going to be either an intentional foul or a flagrant foul, depending on the severity of the contact. And if it is a flagrant foul, the coach would be getting a flagrant "T" also for telling one of his players to go after an opponent like that.

2) Call what actually happens, not the instructions. If the player makes a legitimate attempt to play the ball, you shouldn't call an intentional foul even though you know the team wanted to foul. From POE 3B in the NFHS 2004-05 rulebook:
"There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling. "Going for the ball" is a common phrase heard, but intentional fouls should still be called on players who go for the ball if it is not done properly. Conversely, a coach who yells "Foul!" instructions to his or her team does NOT mean that the ensuing foul is "automatically" an intentional foul- even though it is a strategic foul designed to stop the clock. Coaches, officials,players, fans and administrators must accept fouling as a legitimate coaching strategy.".

MD Longhorn · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 22, 2010, 09:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

NF rules. During a dead ball, Coach A loudly tells A1 to punch B1 in the face and you hear this. A1 does so. Do you have a flagrant technical only on Coach A, only on A1 or do you call one on each? Do you agree any foul(s) should be a flagrant?

Eject everybody. Yes. Both.