OT: Taking sports too seriously

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Since I'm not in the mass media business, perhaps I don't understand exactly how this works and the crux of your complaint. Maybe you can enlighten me.

As you can clearly see, the story which I posted does not have a named author rather it comes from the Associated Press. I did some checking into what that is. Here is what I found:

FAQs | The Associated Press

2. Who owns The Associated Press?
The Associated Press is a not-for-profit cooperative, which means it is owned by its 1,500 U.S. daily newspaper members. They elect a board of directors that directs the cooperative.

5. How can I become a member of The Associated Press and receive AP services?
If you are a newspaper, radio or television station, you can become a member of the AP cooperative.

6. How do I get permission to reprint an AP story or photo?
All requests for republication of AP material must be in writing, clearly stating the purpose and manner in which the copy will be used. All republished material must carry AP credit. Unless specifically noted otherwise, all permission is given for one-time use only. No political candidate, political party, political action committee, polemical organization, or any group formed for partisan purpose may use AP copy in any publication. There may be a fee for reprint use. For permission to reprint an AP story or to use AP material in online/electronic
form:
E-mail AP Digital: [email protected], or fax 212-621-5488.

8. How can I get a copy of an AP story or photo?
AP stories are available on Lexis/Nexis at your local library.

So while I don't fully understand their business model, apparently, I was not harming any individual writer by posting the story as to my knowledge no one in particular claims AP works. Personally, I've never seen a by-line on an AP story.

The group is not out to make money as it is a not-for-profit cooperative. Obviously, the writers have to make some money for their efforts, but how that works and how much is a mystery to me.

I couldn't become a member of the AP if I wanted to as only newspapers, TV stations, and radio stations may do so.

In republishing the material as hundreds of media sources routinely do, I did include the AP credit as is asked.

If one writes to them and asks for permission to reprint one of there stories, it seems unlikely that they will want a fee. Their posted information clearly states that there may be a fee, not that there is one!

All of their stories are available for nothing at any public library, so what possible harm is it to post one on this internet forum in order to share it with other readers? It seems to me that the AP freely distributes their news through our public libraries anyway.

You make a very strong statement that my OP constitutes stealing. Now I challenge you to support that.
Are you contending that if I or anyone else went to my local public library to read this story that I would somehow have to pay for it? If the library pays a fee to the AP make their material available haven't my tax dollars paid for it whether I go there or not?

I see that you think that certain entities carrying these stories deserve "clicks" on their sites. So is the business model of the AP to create content, sell that content to distributors, then have the distributors post it along with advertising which is purchased from them so that when a reader goes to that distributors to read the content they also view the ads? Is this how the AP writers make their salaries? Are they creators of content to be packaged and sold with advertising? If you are worried about the distributors getting their due, I can't sympathize with that. They seem to simply be middlemen who have created a closed monopoly. They set up a system from which only they have access to purchasing the content and then hope to turn around and sell this access to it for an even greater amount. What about that makes them deserving of anything? They didn't create squat.
Of course, the above is only the case for private distributors, but what about the public ones such as the libraries? They don't sell advertising or even membership. All of their funding comes from tax dollars. If the AP sells its content to them, didn't I actually pay for it with my tax contribution? So I'm not depriving those hard-working newsgatherers of any revenue. It's only debatable if I am depriving those in the carefully crafted distribution network of supporting numbers used to market themselves to advertisers.
While it is true that this site didn't pay the AP for the story, it isn't known as, nor does it depict itself as, a place where people can come to consistently read AP material. Posting an occasional story from them isn't going to circumvent the normal distribution model nor hurt the AP's revenue stream.
I think that I will write to the AP and ask them some of these questions in order to better understand what they do and how the do it. Until I learn otherwise, I think that your claims are nothing more than hyperbole.

BTW you contacted Duke University and obtained permission and of course paid for the ability to include their name in your screen handle, right?

[M&M Guy]

Well, at least jbduke is somewhat on-topic, as he's taking something too seriously.

As much as I would welcome the chance to pile on Nevada, I don't see any thing he's done wrong. This happens to be a free message board, so there is no money changing hands as a result of his posting. Owing the AP for posting that article here would be no different than if I walked over to my back fence and starting talking to my neighbor Wilson about it. Besides, Nevada properly credited the AP for the article.

Btw, I haven't seen the bunny in a long time - it's good to see it's still around. I need a pancake and a smile every now and then.

[jbduke]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Since I'm not in the mass media business, perhaps I don't understand exactly how this works and the crux of your complaint. Maybe you can enlighten me.

As you can clearly see, the story which I posted does not have a named author rather it comes from the Associated Press. I did some checking into what that is. Here is what I found:

FAQs | The Associated Press

2. Who owns The Associated Press?
The Associated Press is a not-for-profit cooperative, which means it is owned by its 1,500 U.S. daily newspaper members. They elect a board of directors that directs the cooperative.

5. How can I become a member of The Associated Press and receive AP services?
If you are a newspaper, radio or television station, you can become a member of the AP cooperative.

6. How do I get permission to reprint an AP story or photo?
All requests for republication of AP material must be in writing, clearly stating the purpose and manner in which the copy will be used. All republished material must carry AP credit. Unless specifically noted otherwise, all permission is given for one-time use only. No political candidate, political party, political action committee, polemical organization, or any group formed for partisan purpose may use AP copy in any publication. There may be a fee for reprint use. For permission to reprint an AP story or to use AP material in online/electronic
form:
E-mail AP Digital: [email protected], or fax 212-621-5488.

8. How can I get a copy of an AP story or photo?
AP stories are available on Lexis/Nexis at your local library.

So while I don't fully understand their business model, apparently, I was not harming any individual writer by posting the story as to my knowledge no one in particular claims AP works. Personally, I've never seen a by-line on an AP story.

The group is not out to make money as it is a not-for-profit cooperative. Obviously, the writers have to make some money for their efforts, but how that works and how much is a mystery to me.

I couldn't become a member of the AP if I wanted to as only newspapers, TV stations, and radio stations may do so.

In republishing the material as hundreds of media sources routinely do, I did include the AP credit as is asked.

If one writes to them and asks for permission to reprint one of there stories, it seems unlikely that they will want a fee. Their posted information clearly states that there may be a fee, not that there is one!

All of their stories are available for nothing at any public library, so what possible harm is it to post one on this internet forum in order to share it with other readers? It seems to me that the AP freely distributes their news through our public libraries anyway.

You make a very strong statement that my OP constitutes stealing. Now I challenge you to support that.
Are you contending that if I or anyone else went to my local public library to read this story that I would somehow have to pay for it? If the library pays a fee to the AP make their material available haven't my tax dollars paid for it whether I go there or not?

I see that you think that certain entities carrying these stories deserve "clicks" on their sites. So is the business model of the AP to create content, sell that content to distributors, then have the distributors post it along with advertising which is purchased from them so that when a reader goes to that distributors to read the content they also view the ads? Is this how the AP writers make their salaries? Are they creators of content to be packaged and sold with advertising? If you are worried about the distributors getting their due, I can't sympathize with that. They seem to simply be middlemen who have created a closed monopoly. They set up a system from which only they have access to purchasing the content and then hope to turn around and sell this access to it for an even greater amount. What about that makes them deserving of anything? They didn't create squat.
Of course, the above is only the case for private distributors, but what about the public ones such as the libraries? They don't sell advertising or even membership. All of their funding comes from tax dollars. If the AP sells its content to them, didn't I actually pay for it with my tax contribution? So I'm not depriving those hard-working newsgatherers of any revenue. It's only debatable if I am depriving those in the carefully crafted distribution network of supporting numbers used to market themselves to advertisers.
While it is true that this site didn't pay the AP for the story, it isn't known as, nor does it depict itself as, a place where people can come to consistently read AP material. Posting an occasional story from them isn't going to circumvent the normal distribution model nor hurt the AP's revenue stream.
I think that I will write to the AP and ask them some of these questions in order to better understand what they do and how the do it. Until I learn otherwise, I think that your claims are nothing more than hyperbole.

BTW you contacted Duke University and obtained permission and of course paid for the ability to include their name in your screen handle, right?

I think the crux of our disagreement is in how much weight I give to the considerations the AP gives to libraries, considerations they don't specially grant to other types of entities.

As you found, the AP has special rules for libraries. And there's no disputing that you personally subsidize libraries through your tax dollars. But the fact that you do so does not mean that you are thereby entitled to treat an internet forum as if it were a library.

Good lawyers such as yourself are able to to sell judges and juries on the notion that imperfect analogies are close enough to perfect--please permit me to have a go.

Most public libraries provide computers and internet access to their patrons. If one takes the time to get a library card, he'll be granted some period of access to these library resources. Now let's assume that the library provides wireless access, and that the signal is strong enough so that the cafe next-door can pick up its signal. You're sitting next to a complete stranger in the cafe, and you hear him grumbling about not being able to access the Web.

Is it okay for you to tell him that he can just pop onto the next-door library's signal, and that you'll pull out your library card and read off the password
to him? After all, it's a public library, and you have a proper library card. Why wouldn't it be okay to give him access to that signal?

I think it's not okay first and foremost because he's not a member of the library, and the library's resources are very clearly set out for use by the people who are willing to invest the ten minutes necessary to get a card. But even that notion assumes that this stranger is eligible to get a card at that library in the first place. Maybe he's not: maybe he doesn't live in a zone that pays taxes that are directed to that library.

Now, one might argue that the analogy breaks down because everyone subsidizes a library somewhere. To that I would respond A) off-the-grid free-riders are not exactly an endangered species, and B) for those who are paying their societal fair share, let them use the resources they are entitled to in the intended manner (As a non-student, I wouldn't presume to walk in to even a public university library and be granted privileges). If someone wants to read AP stories for free, let him go to the library that he is (indirectly) paying to use, or let him go to the websites that have gone to the trouble of acquiring the rights to those stories.

I'm also unpersuaded by your parallel argument that it's okay to copy-and-paste from middle-men since, in the case of AP works, said middle-men don't create any original content. Would you say that it's okay to go to a museum (we'll even make ithe admission fee $0), take pictures of the artwork, and then post those pictures to the Web? I certainly hope not, and I would argue that the two cases are not substantively different.

As to your jab about my handle, well played. But fear not, all regular worshippers at the First Church of K are given a fancy-pants From-the-Desk-of-K-watermarked-letterhead document that gives us explicit permission to use the word "Duke" in internet forum handles, so long as we're neither trying to profit directly by the name, nor purporting to officially represent the university. The only other stipulation is that holders not publically post any representation of the document

[Adam]

I think the flaw in your analogy is that the internet cafe is profiting off the internet access by making their establishment more attractive to customers. In essence, you're stealing more from the cafe than from the library.

I have to wonder whether the AP would grant the right to print the entirety of their articles here; I believe the site makes a profit (or attempts to) from ad revenues. I would agree that they should probably be given the opportunity to make that decision, though.

[jbduke]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think the flaw in your analogy is that the internet cafe is profiting off the internet access by making their establishment more attractive to customers. In essence, you're stealing more from the cafe than from the library.

I'm not quite connecting with you here. The cafe may indeed be profiting, but I don't see how that reduces the culpability of someone who grants access to a person who has not gone through the proper procedure to be granted such access. If anything, it seems to me that you're saying that my analogy works as far as it goes, but that it also shows that additional parties could become complicit (if unwittingly so) when the regulations aren't respected.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I have to wonder whether the AP would grant the right to print the entirety of their articles here; I believe the site makes a profit (or attempts to) from ad revenues. I would agree that they should probably be given the opportunity to make that decision, though.

My sentiments exactly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jbduke

But fear not, all regular worshippers at the First Church of K are given a fancy-pants From-the-Desk-of-K-watermarked-letterhead document that gives us explicit permission to use the word "Duke" in internet forum handles, so long as we're neither trying to profit directly by the name, nor purporting to officially represent the university. The only other stipulation is that holders not publically post any representation of the document

The Dookie-ban are also all given copyrighted baseball caps with DUKE written on the front.

Size 1145 1/2.

These caps must be worn at all times when talking to any non-believers, heretics or other such pond scum under penalty of excommunication. Even as we talk, JB is proudly wearing his.

The Dookie-ban motto? "When in doubt, bore everybody to death!"

Cary on upholding that motto, JB.

[jbduke]

Like Dick Vitale, you've become a caraciture of yourself. The only real difference is that Dick's is much less embittered.