Taking the Charge.

[gordon30307]

Fed. Rules. A1 driving to basket for a lay-up. B1 in legal guarding position by basket. Airborn shooter crashes into B1. Charging called we're going the other way. Team A Coach complains we shouldn't be calling this since B1 was by the basket and not really guarding anyone. I see his point but now we have players on the ground and something has to be called IMO.

How do you people handle this. High School Rules only.

[joseph2493]

Originally posted by gordon30307
Fed. Rules. A1 driving to basket for a lay-up. B1 in legal guarding position by basket. Airborn shooter crashes into B1. Charging called we're going the other way. Team A Coach complains we shouldn't be calling this since B1 was by the basket and not really guarding anyone. I see his point but now we have players on the ground and something has to be called IMO.

How do you people handle this. High School Rules only.

It doesn't matter where they are set up if they have both feet planted (in bounds) and facing the offense player they have established legal guarding position. Also keep in mind that both feet do not have to remain in bounds for them to maintain legal guarding position.

We have to understand that legal guarding position does not necessarily mean that they are guarding someone.

They have taken there place on the court, and no matter where it is it is there place to take up. Noone can take that space away from them, if they do and have the ball in hand than it is a "player control."

[lrpalmer3]

It's not about guarding someone, it's about his right to that position on the floor. Sounds like he established that position before the shooter went airborne.

[Grail]

Originally posted by joseph2493

It doesn't matter where they are set up if they have both feet planted (in bounds) and facing the offense player they have established legal guarding position. Also keep in mind that both feet do not have to remain in bounds for them to maintain legal guarding position.

We have to understand that legal guarding position does not necessarily mean that they are guarding someone.

They have taken there place on the court, and no matter where it is it is there place to take up. Noone can take that space away from them, if they do and have the ball in hand than it is a "player control."

Be careful, you must maintain your inbounds status. Players can move, and they can have a foot in the air over the out of bounds area, but if they have a foot out of bounds, they no longer have Legal Guarding Position. Thus a block.

[joseph2493]

Originally posted by Grail

Be careful, you must maintain your inbounds status. Players can move, and they can have a foot in the air over the out of bounds area, but if they have a foot out of bounds, they no longer have Legal Guarding Position. Thus a block.

I apologize, what I meant was that only one foot had to stay inbounds provided he/she has inbound status..

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Per NFHS rules you are perfectly correct. However the coach's concerns should be considered.

NBA has a similar rule with the semicircle under the basket. You cannot guard anyone from there so either get outside the circle or accept a no call.

I believe similar rules are in process for college and I think some high school associations are experimenting with this type of rule.

I would have had to be there to see it, but I think what the coach was suggesting was that you pass on this call - NO CALL.

As with any contact, there is a lot to do with timing. Did the shooter intentionally run over the "defender?" Did the "defender" jump into this spot (albeit legally) trying to defend the basket or simply trying to take a charge?

For you, there are still three options: charge, block, no-call. I think any of them may be valid but no-call is probably the best call given the location (underneath the basket) but intent of the players must be included in the calculation.

Sell it and be confident.

[Kelvin green]

The NBA rule deals with secondary defenders.

[ref18]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Per NFHS rules you are perfectly correct. However the coach's concerns should be considered.

NBA has a similar rule with the semicircle under the basket. You cannot guard anyone from there so either get outside the circle or accept a no call.

I believe similar rules are in process for college and I think some high school associations are experimenting with this type of rule.

I would have had to be there to see it, but I think what the coach was suggesting was that you pass on this call - NO CALL.

As with any contact, there is a lot to do with timing. Did the shooter intentionally run over the "defender?" Did the "defender" jump into this spot (albeit legally) trying to defend the basket or simply trying to take a charge?

For you, there are still three options: charge, block, no-call. I think any of them may be valid but no-call is probably the best call given the location (underneath the basket) but intent of the players must be included in the calculation.

Sell it and be confident.

Just my opinion:

A no call in this situation wouldn't be a correct call. It was said the airborn shooter crashes into B1, therefore that's not incidental contact and a foul must be called, and because legal guarding position was obtained, the only thing to call would be a charge.

Also, with regards to the block charge, time means nothing. As long as the defender obtained a legal guarding position and didn't move into the ball carrier, I'm calling a charge. I don't care if he had it established for a tenth of a second or a full minute.

[Rich]

Originally posted by ref18

Just my opinion:

A no call in this situation wouldn't be a correct call. It was said the airborn shooter crashes into B1, therefore that's not incidental contact and a foul must be called, and because legal guarding position was obtained, the only thing to call would be a charge.

Also, with regards to the block charge, time means nothing. As long as the defender obtained a legal guarding position and didn't move into the ball carrier, I'm calling a charge. I don't care if he had it established for a tenth of a second or a full minute.

0.1 second before A1 becomes an airborne shooter, not 0.1 seconds before contact. This is the one siituation where I think that TOO MANY charges are being called -- when we don't note whether the driving player is already airborne before the defender slides in and LOOKS like he's established LGP.

[canuckrefguy]

Like any other foul/no-call situation, I think it goes situation-to-situation.

A defender standing under the hoop to me is not an automatic charge - like Tony mentioned, there are multiple factors.

Players often will camp out there for no other reason than to draw contact, with no attempt to defend the goal whatsoever. Still others are "lost" and get caught under the hoop, and contact occurs on a layup/dunk with them basically having no way out. I have no sympathy for these players.

If it is an especially violent collision, where the shooter should have been able to avoid contact, that may be another story.

Like I said, evaluate each situation with the info you have, sometimes a charge may be appropriate, but to say ALL the time, I wouldn't go that far.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Per NFHS rules you are perfectly correct. However the coach's concerns should be considered.

Why?

NBA has a similar rule with the semicircle under the basket. You cannot guard anyone from there so either get outside the circle or accept a no call.

This was an NFHS game, not an NBA game. The post very clearly stated that the answer should be in "high school rules only."

I believe similar rules are in process for college and I think some high school associations are experimenting with this type of rule.

Not in this case. Again, irrelevant.

I would have had to be there to see it, but I think what the coach was suggesting was that you pass on this call - NO CALL.

Post said that A1 "crashed into" B1. Doesn't sound like a no-call situation to me.

As with any contact, there is a lot to do with timing. Did the shooter intentionally run over the "defender?"

You mean a call shouldn't be made if A1 didn't mean to crash into B1? Say what? How often does a defender "mean" to foul? Silly.

Did the "defender" jump into this spot (albeit legally) trying to defend the basket or simply trying to take a charge?

If the defender had LGP and did not move under A1 once A1 went airborne, it doesn't matter. Look at 5-1-1 in the "Simplified and Illustrated" rule book. Note that the defender is standing directly under the hoop and it is still a charging foul on A1.

For you, there are still three options: charge, block, no-call. I think any of them may be valid but no-call is probably the best call given the location (underneath the basket) but intent of the players must be included in the calculation.

Under NFHS rules, location under the hoop doesn't matter.

Sell it and be confident.

Agreed, but make the right call.

Z

[ref18]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

0.1 second before A1 becomes an airborne shooter, not 0.1 seconds before contact. This is the one siituation where I think that TOO MANY charges are being called -- when we don't note whether the driving player is already airborne before the defender slides in and LOOKS like he's established LGP.

I guess I should've been a bit more specific. But yes, LGP must be established before A1 becomes an airborne shooter.

[rainmaker]

I think the best way to handle this is to call or no-call according to how your assignor wants it handled. By the book, it should probably be a charge every time, but different localities have their nuances, and unwritten agreements. When in Rome...

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
NBA has a similar rule with the semicircle under the basket. You cannot guard anyone from there so either get outside the circle or accept a no call.

Not sure if anyone will care, but this is inaccurate in a couple of ways.

First, the Restricted Area rules only apply to a secondary defender, or to the "help" defense. So if I'm guarding my man all the way to the hoop and make my stand in the Restricted Area, the official is allowed to call an offensive foul.

Secondly, the Restricted Area rules only apply to that secondary defender if the play begins outside the Lower Defensive Box. (The LDB is a rectangle that is 3 feet wider than the FT lane on each side and extends from the endline to the lower edge of the jump circle). So if A1 gets an offensive rebound in the lane, fakes his primary defender and takes a dribble and plows over the secondary defender who is inside the RA, the official may still call an offensive foul.

Thirdly, the Restricted Area rules only apply to what we'd consider block/charge plays. If the offensive player "clears out" with his off arm (pushing the defender out of the way), then the official may call an offensive foul, regardless of where the play began or which defender is fouled.

Fourth, if there is contact in the RA by the secondary defender on a play that originates outside the LDB, you wlil most likely get a blocking foul, not a no-call.

[ref18]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Not sure if anyone will care, but this is inaccurate in a couple of ways.

First, the Restricted Area rules only apply to a secondary defender, or to the "help" defense. So if I'm guarding my man all the way to the hoop and make my stand in the Restricted Area, the official is allowed to call an offensive foul.

Secondly, the Restricted Area rules only apply to that secondary defender if the play begins outside the Lower Defensive Box. (The LDB is a rectangle that is 3 feet wider than the FT lane on each side and extends from the endline to the lower edge of the jump circle). So if A1 gets an offensive rebound in the lane, fakes his primary defender and takes a dribble and plows over the secondary defender who is inside the RA, the official may still call an offensive foul.

Thirdly, the Restricted Area rules only apply to what we'd consider block/charge plays. If the offensive player "clears out" with his off arm (pushing the defender out of the way), then the official may call an offensive foul, regardless of where the play began or which defender is fouled.

Fourth, if there is contact in the RA by the secondary defender on a play that originates outside the LDB, you wlil most likely get a blocking foul, not a no-call.

...and I thought amateur basketball got complicated