as a crew...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If that is the case then none of us should ever officiate. That is life. Things in life can always be misconstrued, but that does not mean that one interaction is going to be the end all be all in someone's career. We are talking about one play here that was talked about. I do not think anyone should walk on egg shells to avoid all conflicts of any kind.

Knowing what to say, how to say it, and to whom to say it are important traits no matter what part of life we're discussing. It's also different than walking on egg shells.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I understand this, but this was not apart of the OP. He did not say his partners were in any particular stature other than they were veterans, which probably means they had some experience on him in officiating. Heck you might have a person that has a little experience on someone that has little perspective and they could "run and tell" what happened. We cannot spend all our time worrying about that or it will make us ineffective as officials. All veterans were helped at one time by other veterans when they were younger officials. I just think we should not automatically assume that everyone that has worked longer than you has the interest or the ability to ruin you over one game.

Here is the relevant comment from the OP: "questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets)."

I took this to mean that this group was, essentially, part of my #3 above. It doesn't mean the OP shouldn't or couldn't have probed deeper, but I think it does imply that he needs to be professional in how he brings it up. As scrapper points out, there are ways to do this by bringing it back upon yourself. For me, I can still use the "I just want to know how it's done here" card. In the OP, I could have said, "I just want to know how you guys do it so I'm consistent, but I was taught to come in with a foul in that situation. Are you saying it's expected to wait until the lead asks for help on this play?"

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but sometimes it just is.

[Pete]

It sounds like you were set up by the vets. Lesson learned. Pregame the event by saying that sometimes I miss behind contact as lead and would appreciate any help from C and T. You will soon learn who is with you and who is not.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by Pete

Pregame the event by saying that sometimes I miss behind contact as lead and would appreciate any help from C and T. You will soon learn who is with you and who is not.

good point...R's don't really usually pregame in summer league, but I think i'm going to start asking for at least a brief/basic one for situations like this!

[deecee]

Generally as a rule of thumb if a bench and the whole crowd react very displeased with an OOB call I look at my partner and ask if he had anything I might have missed (I only do this when for example I am lead and the ball goes OOB opposite side of where I am).

If he did pass on a foul here is where he would tell me if we DO get together and I will change the call myself.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Pete

It sounds like you were set up by the vets. Lesson learned. Pregame the event by saying that sometimes I miss behind contact as lead and would appreciate any help from C and T. You will soon learn who is with you and who is not.

for the sake of argument, are you really "missing" contact? maybe it's semantics, but, instead of missing that contact, you just didn't see the contact...and, not because you weren't in position or not doing your job. it takes a team to do the job right and cover the angles.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by deecee

Generally as a rule of thumb if a bench and the whole crowd react very displeased with an OOB call I look at my partner and ask if he had anything I might have missed (I only do this when for example I am lead and the ball goes OOB opposite side of where I am).

If he did pass on a foul here is where he would tell me if we DO get together and I will change the call myself.

Here is where I tell him that I am not changing an obvious out of bounds call off A because he passed on a foul.

How the heck do you explain that to B's coach, when everyone (including you) saw and knows that A was the only one to touch the ball before it went OOB?

That's a can of worms you do not want opened. Nothing good can come from it. Changing it in this manner will linger....

Awarding the ball to A in this situation has to sold immediately. Then, if B's coach asks, you can respond with "either way A gets the ball, do you want the foul (and possibly shots) or just the OOB?

If the foul caused the problem, a good coach will understand, be good with it, and will move on.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by DLH17

for the sake of argument, are you really "missing" contact? maybe it's semantics, but, instead of missing that contact, you just didn't see the contact...and, not because you weren't in position or not doing your job. it takes a team to do the job right and cover the angles.

I may have been too close to the play, but as they were fighting for the rebound in that quick tip second, i was looking up top to see who tipped it last. This is where my partner said B1 was 'over the back' of A1, causing A1 to touch it last. Said he was hoping i'd give the ball back to A1, to 'save B1 a foul'.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

I may have been too close to the play, but as they were fighting for the rebound in that quick tip second, i was looking up top to see who tipped it last. This is where my partner said B1 was 'over the back' of A1, causing A1 to touch it last. Said he was hoping i'd give the ball back to A1, to 'save B1 a foul'.

Exactly. I'm tracking with you, vbz. Which is the reason I'm not telling everyone in pre-game that I might "miss" some contact.

No way do I say it that way. Rather, I say something similar to this, "my partners and I will be working as a team to catch as much illegal contact as possible.".

[Adam]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Exactly. I'm tracking with you, vbz. Which is the reason I'm not telling everyone in pre-game that I might "miss" some contact.

No way do I say it that way. Rather, I say something similar to this, "my partners and I will be working as a team to catch as much illegal contact as possible.".

Wait a second, are you talking about the pregame meeting with the coaches?

[Judtech]

VB here are .02 from a fellow Commonwealther:
You made the right call. Some officials think that getting the OB correct is the most difficult call in a game.
I was brought up in the school that most rebounding fouls should come from the C and/or T. It is very difficult for an L to see a push in the back.
What the other officials MIGHT have been thinking was that you saw the push in the back, and passed on it in favor of just awarding the ball to A. When you gave it to B, they were *&$%ed. (and you SHOULD have given it to B based on what you saw)
As for addressing the guys later, I would have said something to the effect "yeah, if I had seen the push I might have given it to A, but since all I saw was A touch it last I had to go with that." It is VERY non committal and should keep you out of any hotwater with any local politics.
Drop me a line if you head over to the Central part of the Commonwealth!

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Wait a second, are you talking about the pregame meeting with the coaches?

I thought that is what the other poster was implying since the angry B coach was part of the discussion.

I would choose not to say the words "I might miss some contact" no matter who I'm talking to....partners or otherwise. DEF NOT a coach, at any time.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Knowing what to say, how to say it, and to whom to say it are important traits no matter what part of life we're discussing. It's also different than walking on egg shells.

Here is the relevant comment from the OP: "questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets)."

I took this to mean that this group was, essentially, part of my #3 above. It doesn't mean the OP shouldn't or couldn't have probed deeper, but I think it does imply that he needs to be professional in how he brings it up. As scrapper points out, there are ways to do this by bringing it back upon yourself. For me, I can still use the "I just want to know how it's done here" card. In the OP, I could have said, "I just want to know how you guys do it so I'm consistent, but I was taught to come in with a foul in that situation. Are you saying it's expected to wait until the lead asks for help on this play?"

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but sometimes it just is.

All I am saying is you cannot officiate in fear. You have to officiate as if you are just as good as the people you are dealing with. If there is a conflict, handle it professionally. And if there is a conflict, then know your place in that conflict. That is why the term "silence cannot be quoted" works in so many areas. But not talking about the play honestly is not good IMO. And I think stature of an official is based more on accomplishment then simply years of experience. We have many guys that have been around for 20 years but cannot work a playoff game. I would be more concerned about butting heads with the state final/college official than just a guy that I worked with that has been doing this for 15 years.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by DLH17

I thought that is what the other poster was implying since the angry B coach was part of the discussion.

I would choose not to say the words "I might miss some contact" no matter who I'm talking to....partners or otherwise. DEF NOT a coach, at any time.

Personally, if I'm talking to other officials, it really goes without saying. I don't even get into that arena with coaches in a game setting, though. I wouldn't even say the following to a coach:

Originally Posted by DLH17

"my partners and I will be working as a team to catch as much illegal contact as possible.".

It's almost as bad as listing the year's POEs and saying you're watching for them.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All I am saying is you cannot officiate in fear. You have to officiate as if you are just as good as the people you are dealing with. If there is a conflict, handle it professionally. And if there is a conflict, then know your place in that conflict. That is why the term "silence cannot be quoted" works in so many areas. But not talking about the play honestly is not good IMO. And I think stature of an official is based more on accomplishment then simply years of experience. We have many guys that have been around for 20 years but cannot work a playoff game. I would be more concerned about butting heads with the state final/college official than just a guy that I worked with that has been doing this for 15 years.

Peace

Agreed.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, if I'm talking to other officials, it really goes without saying. I don't even get into that arena with coaches in a game setting, though. I wouldn't even say the following to a coach:



It's almost as bad as listing the year's POEs and saying you're watching for them.

Agreed.