R3 tag, 2 man crew

[orioles35]

R3, less than two outs. I'm PU, BU is behind the mound.
B1 hits a pop-up to the edge of the grass to the left of F4, R3 gambles, tags and scores. Appeal to 3B following the play, I point to BU who was watching the catch. Coach gives me an earful, saying "that's your call".

Since there was a R3, isn't that the BU call? I have to stay at home in case of the play at the plate and besides, no matter how much I move down the line to see if R3 leaves early, I'm never going to see separation between R3 and the bag, certainly if I'm going to be making a call at home.

This wasn't a play where the ball went high enough that the BU could position himself where he could see the catch and the runner. Is this simply a limitation of a 2-man crew?

[Tim C]

"Since there was a R3, isn't that the BU call?"

No, PU has all touches and tags at third.

The proper procedure is to retreat to the "Library" (that means you move towards the third base dugout and get towards the fencing) and get as good of a look at the tag-up (glance at the ball until it is touched, then quickly change your attention to R3) making sure that you have not moved to far from the plate that you can't beat R3 to the dish.

Again this is difficult but it is simply another trade off with two man mechanics.

The key issue is to get as close to the fencing as possible as this opens up the angles for the call. While it is not a great look most umpires treat the outcome with the philosophy that R3 had to have left "real early" to be noticed enough to call out on appeal.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Aug 17th, 2004 at 04:28 PM]

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by orioles35

R3, less than two outs. I'm PU, BU is behind the mound.
B1 hits a pop-up to the edge of the grass to the left of F4, R3 gambles, tags and scores. Appeal to 3B following the play, I point to BU who was watching the catch. Coach gives me an earful, saying "that's your call".

Since there was a R3, isn't that the BU call?

In a 2 Person System, the Tag up at 3rd belongs to the PU. You as PU get in the best position possible to get a view of the runner and the fielder. The BU has all other runners should they tag, plus the BU has to watch the BR touch first base as well should the ball be dropped.

The Coach was right.

Pete Booth

[orioles35]

Thanks. I learned something.

[cbfoulds]

Not arguing at all with the advice of prev. posters [I agree: PU all the way], but what did y'all talk about in your pregame on these kinds of situations?

Even with partners I've worked with a lot, we almost always cover this [tags & touches @ 3d], along with fair/foul & catch division of responsibility, & a couple other items: as much to remind ourselves as to see that everybody's on the same page. Even if my partner says: "usual stuff, right?", I'll quickly run the list. I also have one or two items [where failure to be on the same page has bit me in the a$$ before] I always make sure I cover with a new partner or one who hasn't worked with me in a while.

"Who's got the lead runner"?/ 3d base tags & touches is something both of you have to KNOW the answer to before it arises. The other posters have given you the "standard option", and that is also probably the best way to go: but whatever you are going to do, pregame it with your partner.

--Carter

[jicecone]

Originally posted by orioles35
Thanks. I learned something.

One more good lesson here. Go over these things during your pre-game with your partner and it will at least be understood. In 4-5 min you can cover everything.

During a game you can even speak up before play begins and state "I have the runner at 3". or a quick signal. I try to announce, "I got ball and runner". There leave nothing to the imagination then. Communication on the field like that , lets everybody know and even shows that your team is working together.

This especially works with a new partner that you know didn't really understand or care about what you were saying during your pre-game.

Good Luck

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by jicecone

During a game you can even speak up before play begins and state "I have the runner at 3". ... Communication on the field like that , lets everybody know and even shows that your team is working together.

Mechanics are paramount to success. However, communication like this is icing on the cake. Yes, you are communicating with your partner but you are also communicating with anyone else that is paying attention... like the coach, like the runner, like the defense.

If the runner hears that his tag is being watched, "I've got the tag at 3rd." he's gonna stay on the base. The defense is likely not going to make an appeal unless the runner is deaf or wasn't listening and therefore was off WAY early. You generally have saved yourself from needing to make a call.

This kind of communication is highly preventive. It makes your game go smoother. Additionally, if you make that communcation, you're also going to use the proper mechanic so you can see the play - self, and team, improvement all the way around.

This is a good thing - Martha.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by jicecone

One more good lesson here. Go over these things during your pre-game with your partner and it will at least be understood. In 4-5 min you can cover everything.

During a game you can even speak up before play begins and state "I have the runner at 3". or a quick signal. I try to announce, "I got ball and runner". There leave nothing to the imagination then. Communication on the field like that , lets everybody know and even shows that your team is working together.

This especially works with a new partner that you know didn't really understand or care about what you were saying during your pre-game.

Good Luck

Everything that COULD happen in a game can not possibly be discussed in the pregame. The PU getting the tag-up at 3rd is a fairly standard and basic item for umpires. It's fair to assume that a certified umpire would know that. It's always a bit surprising when they fail to know something very basic.

For instance, in the pregame, as the BU, would you tell/remind your partner that he has to cover the bases when you decide to "go out?" In my area, you actually have to go over that - believe it or not. They might even say, "Go where?" That calls into question what ELSE of a very basic nature needs to be addressed. If very basic things have to be discussed, then it opens up a huge spectrum of more advanced things that would probably need to be touched upon. Just how long is the pregame going to be? Is it going to be a briefing or a clinic? When you're working with somebody for whom mechanics do not come easy, invariably, something will arise that has not been addressed. You can TRY to cover everything ... but it's nearly impossible.

Whenever I'm working with an umpire I do not know, I engage in a little light conversation looking for indications of his experience level. Once I'm confident that he seems to be fairly experienced, I tend to cover idiosyncrasies of mine. 1) I will be quick to come to you on a checked swing. Sometimes I'll come to you in certain situations, even if I'm not asked. Be ready. 2) As BU, I go out frequently. If in doubt, I go out. 3) In a rundown, when I come to help you, I'll only cover the cutout area in the immediate proximity of my base - you have EVERYTHING else in the rundown. Stuff like that.

I shouldn't feel the need to explain flyball coverage. How many of you have had a BU, in position A, signal outs on flyballs in the infield and routine catches in the outfield when you're the PU? I have it happen all the time. Normally it's no big deal. The participants hardly ever notice the double call. But you can see how this trend could be a potential disaster later in the game on that shoestring catch you just KNOW is coming in the final inning. I usually have to have a word with my partner between innings.

So where does the pregame start and end? How much do you cover? How much of it should be basic stuff? Should you even address the basics at the risk of insulting your partner?

It's tough.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Aug 24th, 2004 at 07:16 PM]

[jicecone]

Your absolutely right Dave but, I have worked with some 25 year veterans that still don't know those basics. Did'nt know them before the game , after we talked about them, and even the next game. Each partner is different. But , I know one thing for sure, when either one of us look bad, WE BOTH LOOK BAD.

My general rule of thumb is, if your experienced, show me what you can do. Prove it to me. I will try and cover as much as possible in a pre-game that I can, until you prove to me that you know it. And then I will help out with constructive critisim. Most coaches will give the Blue team some slack if they see that you are on top of it and working with your partner.

Then, if I see that my partner is totally out of his league, I will call the assignor and let him know.

The answer to your question depends upon your experience and then given that you know what your doing, your partners experience.

This is where having a good assignor pays off, because he will call you ahead of time and you will probably know real fast, the answer.

[TBBlue]

Careful on flyball coverages. I work with one group that is straight PBUC...plate guy has infield when BU in A, my other group leans toward Carl's method of BU sliding along top of infield for flys to infield. I was trained by the former group, and must be very careful when working with other group and on plate to not run into the double call. Unless you know the guy and have worked with him many times, fly ball coverage is a must in all pregames. Touches and tags of bases also a must, always. Even if it never changes. Nothing sucks more than plate guy coming to you in C on flyball to right field for the retouch at third. Somebody has to make the call, so he's safe because I sure didn't see him leave early.

[Edited by TBBlue on Aug 25th, 2004 at 12:58 PM]