as a crew...

[vbzebra]

Ok, had this pop up last night during a summer league game. How would you handle this as a crew?...

3-person. I'm L tableside (in front of A's bench). A1 has inside position for a rebound during a shot and B1 is behind him. Ball bounces high, and it's one of those real quick bang-bang out of bounds plays with both guys reaching up high to try and swipe the ball. I see the ball go off of A1's hands out of bounds, give ball to B. Team A and A's coach all have kittens in response to the call (team A coach then proceeds to question EVERY call I make for the next 5 minutes, which I know, my fault, I should haveput an end to THAT eaerly and not let it go on for several minutes).

At halftime, my partner, who was C on the particular out of bounds play says that the only reason the ball went off of A1 was b/c he was being pushed in the back by B1. I couldn't see this contact b/c I was L on the play and was looking up top at hands trying to tip the ball and apparently got straightlined.

Partner says he at T both had a push in the back on B1 but both laid off of it. They said they would have changed the call if I had asked for help on the OBB play.

Thing was, I SAW the ball go off of A (which they agree with). But if I don't have the angle to see the contact, how can I ask for help when I'm sure it went off of A? How do you handle this as a crew? I wanted to say "well, if you both saw the contact, then call it!", but felt I would come across as some pompus, in-experienced hot shot, questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets). Could I have mentioned that a different way? How would you handle this as a crew? Maybe I should have taken a step or two during the rebound action to get a better angle? Looking for some honest help with this particular situation. Thanks!

[asdf]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

Ok, had this pop up last night during a summer league game. How would you handle this as a crew?...

3-person. I'm L tableside (in front of A's bench). A1 has inside position for a rebound during a shot and B1 is behind him. Ball bounces high, and it's one of those real quick bang-bang out of bounds plays with both guys reaching up high to try and swipe the ball. I see the ball go off of A1's hands out of bounds, give ball to B. Team A and A's coach all have kittens in response to the call (team A coach then proceeds to question EVERY call I make for the next 5 minutes, which I know, my fault, I should haveput an end to THAT eaerly and not let it go on for several minutes).

At halftime, my partner, who was C on the particular out of bounds play says that the only reason the ball went off of A1 was b/c he was being pushed in the back by B1. I couldn't see this contact b/c I was L on the play and was looking up top at hands trying to tip the ball and apparently got straightlined.

Partner says he at T both had a push in the back on B1 but both laid off of it. They said they would have changed the call if I had asked for help on the OBB play.

Thing was, I SAW the ball go off of A (which they agree with). But if I don't have the angle to see the contact, how can I ask for help when I'm sure it went off of A? How do you handle this as a crew? I wanted to say "well, if you both saw the contact, then call it!", but felt I would come across as some pompus, in-experienced hot shot, questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets). Could I have mentioned that a different way? How would you handle this as a crew? Maybe I should have taken a step or two during the rebound action to get a better angle? Looking for some honest help with this particular situation. Thanks!

They passed on a foul, a foul so obvious that given the opportunity they would have changed a call that was just as obvious....

Sounds like your "seasoned vets" need some more seasoning.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

At halftime, my partner, who was C on the particular out of bounds play says that the only reason the ball went off of A1 was b/c he was being pushed in the back by B1. I couldn't see this contact b/c I was L on the play and was looking up top at hands trying to tip the ball and apparently got straightlined.

Partner says he at T both had a push in the back on B1 but both laid off of it. They said they would have changed the call if I had asked for help on the OBB play.

Thing was, I SAW the ball go off of A (which they agree with). But if I don't have the angle to see the contact, how can I ask for help when I'm sure it went off of A? How do you handle this as a crew?

If you think you had the call right, then there was NO need to ask for help. You just live and die with it unless one of your partners does come in.

And neither of your partners can change a violation to a foul if you do go to them for help. There's no rules backing to do that. The idea from the git-go is to get the call right. If either of your partners really wanted to get the call right, they would have immediately came to you to discuss it. And that discussion consists of deciding what occurred first---> the violation or the foul. That's what you and your partner(s) have to come to a concensus on.

You're completely right in analyzing the play post-call to see if you should have done something different to maybe get into a better position to see the contact. But sometimes you just can't see that type of contact from the L and you have to depend on your partner(s) to catch it. Doo-doo happens.

From a political standpoint, let it go. There's no upside in getting into it any further. Experience does not necessarily equate to competency. And from your description, that seems to suit your partners to a T. Part of the learning process is learning what partners you can learn from.

Good job on your part imo. I wouldn't sweat it any further.

[vbzebra]

Thanks for the help all. Yeah, told myself last night that i would let it tick me off until I went to bed, and next morning i'd not worry about it any longer (the nice frosty cold one I had when I got home helped too

New day, not worrying about it anymore. But I do appreciate the feedback.

[GoodwillRef]

"I would come across as some pompus, in-experienced hot shot, questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets). "

This is total crap...if you are not going to work as a crew than I don't want to work with them. I would have come off at a pompus a$$ and questioned them big time. Call the DARN foul.

Just because you are a seasoned veteran official doesn't mean you are any good or don't make mistakes...I am pissed for you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I would have come off at a pompus a$$ and questioned them big time.

You'd better know the local politics well before you do something like this. You may be 100% right but kicking up a fuss with a couple of good ol' boys that may have a l'il stroke in your area might just be the worst thing that you can do as a new official.

Unfortunately, there's a real world out there. And the right thing isn't necessarily the smartest thing...or the best option.

Again, jmo.

[GoodwillRef]

Then the bigger question is why is the environment like that? Why are we killing ourselves? What year of officiating do you become untouchable...year 10-15? In our association our veteran officials try to improve themselves every year and are willing to give feedback and well as receive it. A crew means a team of three...no part being more improtant than the other two.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You'd better know the local politics well before you do something like this. You may be 100% right but kicking up a fuss with a couple of good ol' boys that may have a l'il stroke in your area might just be the worst thing that you can do as a new official.

Unfortunately, there's a real world out there. And the right thing isn't necessarily the smartest thing...or the best option.

Again, jmo.

+1

Know who's who in your neck of the woods! Pissing off the wrong person could land you in F/JV circuit for good.


That being said, in regards to vbzebras sitch, lets be good partners & get the call right!! I hate when "partners" dont give help because you didn't ask for it, especially on plays they know you can't see

At the end of the day, egos aside, lets get it right as we are paid to do.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

"I would come across as some pompus, in-experienced hot shot, questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets). "

This is total crap...if you are not going to work as a crew than I don't want to work with them. I would have come off at a pompus a$$ and questioned them big time. Call the DARN foul.

Just because you are a seasoned veteran official doesn't mean you are any good or don't make mistakes...I am pissed for you.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You'd better know the local politics well before you do something like this. You may be 100% right but kicking up a fuss with a couple of good ol' boys that may have a l'il stroke in your area might just be the worst thing that you can do as a new official.

Unfortunately, there's a real world out there. And the right thing isn't necessarily the smartest thing...or the best option.

Again, jmo.

First of all this is "summer league" stuff. This was not the regular season where this would probably be a bigger issue. People in the summer make mistakes all the time and we forget about it a day later. And overreacting in the summer time is really a mistake many younger officials make. This was one play for God's sake, not several events.

Yes there are politics involved, but this is really not a political issue. And just speaking up would not mean that you would be relegated to anything during the summer. Some of this would depend on the area, but I cannot imagine much coming from one conversation that was conducted professionally would be that big of a deal.

Peace

[deecee]

Generally as a rule of thumb if a bench and the whole crowd react very displeased with an OOB call I look at my partner and ask if he had anything I might have missed (I only do this when for example I am lead and the ball goes OOB opposite side of where I am).

If he did pass on a foul here is where he would tell me if we DO get together and I will change the call myself.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by deecee

Generally as a rule of thumb if a bench and the whole crowd react very displeased with an OOB call I look at my partner and ask if he had anything I might have missed (I only do this when for example I am lead and the ball goes OOB opposite side of where I am).

If he did pass on a foul here is where he would tell me if we DO get together and I will change the call myself.

Here is where I tell him that I am not changing an obvious out of bounds call off A because he passed on a foul.

How the heck do you explain that to B's coach, when everyone (including you) saw and knows that A was the only one to touch the ball before it went OOB?

That's a can of worms you do not want opened. Nothing good can come from it. Changing it in this manner will linger....

Awarding the ball to A in this situation has to sold immediately. Then, if B's coach asks, you can respond with "either way A gets the ball, do you want the foul (and possibly shots) or just the OOB?

If the foul caused the problem, a good coach will understand, be good with it, and will move on.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

How would you handle this as a crew?

here's what I would have said/done:

"thanks for sharing that info. with me here at halftime. I have a question for both of you: what good is that info. to me now? In the future, if you have info. that should be shared w/ me, share it with me on the floor - NOT in the locker room. there is absolutely nothing I can do about it now."

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

I wanted to say "well, if you both saw the contact, then call it!", but felt I would come across as some pompus, in-experienced hot shot, questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets). Could I have mentioned that a different way?

"Dammit. I guess I just flat-out missed that one. Look, since I'm obviously not getting a good look from Lead, would you guys do me a favor and grab any rebounding fouls you see from T or C? It'd really save my @ss."

My experience is that it's always easier for other people to hear suggestions when it's actually my problem and they're helping me out of a jam. A spoonful of sugar. . .

[Judtech]

VB here are .02 from a fellow Commonwealther:
You made the right call. Some officials think that getting the OB correct is the most difficult call in a game.
I was brought up in the school that most rebounding fouls should come from the C and/or T. It is very difficult for an L to see a push in the back.
What the other officials MIGHT have been thinking was that you saw the push in the back, and passed on it in favor of just awarding the ball to A. When you gave it to B, they were *&$%ed. (and you SHOULD have given it to B based on what you saw)
As for addressing the guys later, I would have said something to the effect "yeah, if I had seen the push I might have given it to A, but since all I saw was A touch it last I had to go with that." It is VERY non committal and should keep you out of any hotwater with any local politics.
Drop me a line if you head over to the Central part of the Commonwealth!