as a crew...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

"I would come across as some pompus, in-experienced hot shot, questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets). "

This is total crap...if you are not going to work as a crew than I don't want to work with them. I would have come off at a pompus a$$ and questioned them big time. Call the DARN foul.

Just because you are a seasoned veteran official doesn't mean you are any good or don't make mistakes...I am pissed for you.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You'd better know the local politics well before you do something like this. You may be 100% right but kicking up a fuss with a couple of good ol' boys that may have a l'il stroke in your area might just be the worst thing that you can do as a new official.

Unfortunately, there's a real world out there. And the right thing isn't necessarily the smartest thing...or the best option.

Again, jmo.

First of all this is "summer league" stuff. This was not the regular season where this would probably be a bigger issue. People in the summer make mistakes all the time and we forget about it a day later. And overreacting in the summer time is really a mistake many younger officials make. This was one play for God's sake, not several events.

Yes there are politics involved, but this is really not a political issue. And just speaking up would not mean that you would be relegated to anything during the summer. Some of this would depend on the area, but I cannot imagine much coming from one conversation that was conducted professionally would be that big of a deal.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Who said anything about a "late" whistle?

Point taken. But, seriously, just pausing for that extra half sec or so can make a big difference in how that situation plays out.

Agreed. I'll delay my whistle, but I'll have one regardless. If I see my partner has a fist up, I'll drop my arm. If he just has his hand up, I'll close in and offer my opinion. It's possible he saw A1's foot on the line prior to the foul.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

How would you handle this as a crew?

here's what I would have said/done:

"thanks for sharing that info. with me here at halftime. I have a question for both of you: what good is that info. to me now? In the future, if you have info. that should be shared w/ me, share it with me on the floor - NOT in the locker room. there is absolutely nothing I can do about it now."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Jurassic, you make some valid points, but how did we let it get to where it is today?

Why do some associations insist on perpetuating the good ol' boy crap?

There's no one-size-fits-all answer imo. Unfortunately, you have to adjust to your enviroment and either hope like hell the enviroment changes or work like hell to change the enviroment. The inherent risk though is that if you're gonna work like hell to change the enviroment, you might just screw-up your officiating career path while doing so.

A good idea might be to become fairly established in your local association before before trying to get the changes made. If you are, it's easier because you've established some credibility with your fellow officials.

Officiating should be a meritocracy and a democracy, but what it should be ain't necessarily what it is. And you may have to adjust to "what it is" until "what it is" changes.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why do some associations insist on perpetuating the good ol' boy crap?

I do not think this is an association issue, I think it is an individual issue. Individuals like to say "politics" or "Ole Boy Network" when they are not in the loop or they are not getting the assignments they feel they should. Politics that I have seen always applies to people of similar stature. Politics is not holding back a young official because an older guy is around. In many cases you need the younger guys to work or progress because the older guys will leave. But no one is just getting rid of some veteran because a younger official thinks they can officiate a little. No matter how you say that, younger guys want to get to the top fast and do not understand the ramifications if they mess up early in their careers. Veterans are often in higher positions because we know what we will get from them. I have no idea what some young whippersnapper is going to do when they have yet to prove themselves. And something tells me that these veterans probably would not have made as big deal about the issue as the younger officials would.

Peace

[vbzebra]

believe me, i want to learn as much as possible to become a better official, and I know that I'm not about to take the position/games of a well established veteran. It just seems like sometimes (at least that's what I've heard from others, both in my association and on this forum) that we (newer officials) are sometimes frowend upon when a veteran gives us advice and then we ask questions...with no intention of trying to "show up" a vet, but just to ask a simple question and get an answer for informational purposes.

I know it's a fine line to tread. In response to my original post, i know all 3 of us mucked up on that particular play, beginning with me getting straight lined. I know it's 'summer league', but I want to use those games to get better for the 'real' games come the winter.

All of these respones/answers have been extremly helpful, I really appreicate everyone's input!!

[GoodwillRef]

JRut,

Don't you also think the old boys systems is still around because the old boys have a lot of the games to assign? Those who have games have the power!

I assign a summer league in our area and we like to treat it just like the regular season. IMO too many guys let summer games get too rough and then all hell breaks loose and they wonder why that happen...it doesn't happen during the regular season.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

JRut,

Don't you also think the old boys systems is still around because the old boys have a lot of the games to assign? Those who have games have the power!

Maybe you work in a different system, but I am a President of an organization and I have no power as to who works and does not work games for anyone. All I can do is give my opinion on individuals that work in a couple of camps I am associated with and all that does is maybe we pass along some information if I am asked. And the people in my area that assign have to be impressed by the individual, not by me or anyone else in a similar position. And I did not hear that these two veterans were in a position to change the outcome of someone's career.

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I assign a summer league in our area and we like to treat it just like the regular season. IMO too many guys let summer games get too rough and then all hell breaks loose and they wonder why that happen...it doesn't happen during the regular season.

I seriously doubt you treat it the same, because I doubt the participants treat it the same. In other words I doubt seriously that you have the same media coverage for summer games as you would during the regular season. Which probably means if a team wins a tournament or plays in a league, I doubt that there are banners hung up for those accomplishments or championships.

Also summer is probably the place where guys are working with people and teams they would likely not see during the winter. I am not talking about letting it get rough; I am talking about the ramifications for mistakes. Summer is the time to make a lot of them as the outcome is not going to be perceived the same.

I just think we should not over play this interaction. It was an interesting play that should have been handled differently in my opinion. But that does not mean that if some questions were asked the person's career would be over because they were talking about a play. Veterans that care talk about plays all the time to get better. And maybe if the right question was raised (like JeffPea suggested) then it might have been a teaching moment for all officials.

Peace

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I just think we should not over play this interaction. It was an interesting play that should have been handled differently in my opinion. But that does not mean that if some questions were asked the person's career would be over because they were talking about a play. Veterans that care talk about plays all the time to get better. And maybe if the right question was raised (like JeffPea suggested) then it might have been a teaching moment for all officials.

Peace

+1, especially the "diffferent" way of asking my original question (thanks to JeffPea). I know the vet was only trying to help, and i was totally appreciative of the info/help, just wish it could have come immidiately after i blew the call

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Maybe you work in a different system, but I am a President of an organization and I have no power as to who works and does not work games for anyone. All I can do is give my opinion on individuals that work in a couple of camps I am associated with and all that does is maybe we pass along some information if I am asked. And the people in my area that assign have to be impressed by the individual, not by me or anyone else in a similar position. And I did not hear that these two veterans were in a position to change the outcome of someone's career.

And the advice here has been to make sure the OP understands his system and who is who before saying a whole lot. Even completely professional remarks and intentions can be misconstrued by someone who wants to do so for whatever reason.

Our board president does not assign games, but I would guarantee you his opinion carries a lot of weight with our board's assigner. Here, unlike your area, all assignments come from the local association, so going sideways with leadership is a great way to limit options.

It seems to me there are three sorts of power players in most associations:
1. Officers (pres, vp, secretary, etc.)
2. Former Officers
3. Veterans who don't serve as official leadership but whose opinions carry significant weight.

As in every organization, some of those folks will be more "sensitive" than others.

[MD Longhorn]

Very few have answered OP's actual question...

Here's how I would have handled this, knowing that I'm a newbie and the other two are GOB veterans...

"Someone I worked with a few weeks ago was telling me that if I'm T or N in that situation, I should blow the whistle. Is that incorrect? If our positions were reversed on that play, would you expect me to call the foul? Would you, as L, have automatically come to your partners asking if they saw a foul, when you had no reason to believe there was one?"

[zeedonk]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

He wasn't straight-lined because the lead shouldn't be getting rebound fouls of this nature...the center and trail have good lucks...blow your whistle.

Absoultely. This is one of the items on the pregame checklist. Admittedly, I don't always pregame summer/aau/wreck games unless I'm with a cadet or somebody I don't know. And God bless you for having summer 3 person games. We don't have much.

Our 3 man mechanics have taught us that as L, this is not your foul to call (unless it's obvious and you see it). Your call is the OOB, which you made without question. This is one of those situations where when it happened to me, I just made a mental note of which jokers I was working with and made an on the spot determination if I was gonna press it any further. I was also wondering if the bench or players were complaining about the non-call...?

If you know your rules and know your on court positioning and mechanics, you can be confident that you are right regardless of your partner(s).

Z

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

I wanted to say "well, if you both saw the contact, then call it!", but felt I would come across as some pompus, in-experienced hot shot, questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets). Could I have mentioned that a different way?

"Dammit. I guess I just flat-out missed that one. Look, since I'm obviously not getting a good look from Lead, would you guys do me a favor and grab any rebounding fouls you see from T or C? It'd really save my @ss."

My experience is that it's always easier for other people to hear suggestions when it's actually my problem and they're helping me out of a jam. A spoonful of sugar. . .

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And the advice here has been to make sure the OP understands his system and who is who before saying a whole lot. Even completely professional remarks and intentions can be misconstrued by someone who wants to do so for whatever reason.

If that is the case then none of us should ever officiate. That is life. Things in life can always be misconstrued, but that does not mean that one interaction is going to be the end all be all in someone's career. We are talking about one play here that was talked about. I do not think anyone should walk on egg shells to avoid all conflicts of any kind.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Our board president does not assign games, but I would guarantee you his opinion carries a lot of weight with our board's assigner. Here, unlike your area, all assignments come from the local association, so going sideways with leadership is a great way to limit options.

In my association we need young guys. They will one day replace us in all kinds of ways. I cannot be in my position forever. I am sure many other associations realize this too.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It seems to me there are three sorts of power players in most associations:
1. Officers (pres, vp, secretary, etc.)
2. Former Officers
3. Veterans who don't serve as official leadership but whose opinions carry significant weight.

As in every organization, some of those folks will be more "sensitive" than others.

I understand this, but this was not apart of the OP. He did not say his partners were in any particular stature other than they were veterans, which probably means they had some experience on him in officiating. Heck you might have a person that has a little experience on someone that has little perspective and they could "run and tell" what happened. We cannot spend all our time worrying about that or it will make us ineffective as officials. All veterans were helped at one time by other veterans when they were younger officials. I just think we should not automatically assume that everyone that has worked longer than you has the interest or the ability to ruin you over one game.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Heck you might have a person that has a little experience on someone that has little perspective and they could "run and tell" what happened. Peace

Not to mention, we've all worked with guys with 20 years experience, and other guys with 1 year of experience 20 times.