Excessive swinging of elbows

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The point that I was trying to make all along...and obviously not very well...was if the player with the ball
had his elbow outside his normally allowed space, then it wasn't a legal pivot if contact occurred. But if it was a legal pivot(elbow inside the normally allowed space--judgment call obviously), then you couldn't call a PC foul on the offensive player. That's the way that we've always called this type of play, I thought.

From the OP:

Originally Posted by Hornets222003

Also, later in the game, a post player makes a legal pivot with his elbows out and contacts a defender in the jaw. I deemed it a legal move (his elbows were not moving faster than his torso, and in my mind, I though the contact was incidental since the gaurd was in his space trying to knock the ball away.

This portion violates 4-24-6 and is illegal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by sseltser

This portion violates 4-24-6 and is illegal.

Disagree. If the elbows are extended within the the normally allowed space of the player pivoting, then the player is performing a pivot that is perfectly legal by rule. He can only commit a foul if he performs an illegal pivot by extending his elbows outside his normally allowed space or he whacks an opponent with an elbow that is moving faster than the pivot.

And that's exactly the way that it's been called for the last 50 years afaik.

Are you really trying to see that it's illegal for a player with the ball to extend an elbow at ANY time while pivoting, no matter how far that elbow is extended?

WOW!

Just WOW!

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you really trying to see that it's illegal for a player with the ball to extend an elbow at ANY time while pivoting, no matter how far that elbow is extended?

The OP states the elbows were "out." I'm just not seeing how this could possibly be within his vertical space.

I think we are just discussing verbiage here, not actual application, but with the way the OP is worded, I can't rule out a PC. I'm not sure it was a PC, but I can't say it didn't happen.

And to answer your question, it is always an illegal position to have elbows extended beyond normal vertical space, whether pivoting or not. A foul doesn't occur until it hinders the opponent's normal offensive or defensive movements.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by sseltser

From the OP:
This portion violates 4-24-6 and is illegal.

Are you saying this because you feel that it is illegal to extend one's elbow/s and make contact when ones hands are held near ones chest and/or their arms are held apporximately horizontal to the playing court? Where would you get an idea like that?